Ep. 78: The Teacher As Listener with Singer/Songwriter Vance Gilbert
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Transcript:
Melissa Milner 0:09
Welcome to The Teacher as Podcast. I'm your host Melissa Milner, a teacher who is painfully curious and very easily inspired. This podcast is ever changing. And I hope with each season, you find episodes that speak to you in your work as an educator. This is the fourth season of The Teacher As and it's exciting to see the growth in how many educators are listening. Episodes are released every other week. If you enjoy The Teacher As..., please rate it on Apple podcast and leave a review. It helps the podcast reach more educators. Thanks for listening.
Melissa Milner 0:42
I know Vance because of my social media person, Amy Malkoff, the amazing Amy Malkoff. And Amy... Amy does your website right?
Vance Gilbert 0:52
Amy does everything web wise for me that I don't do and she is, yeah, she's magnificent. I readily say I have a career because of Amy in so many ways. She does my weekly mail like web mailer. She manages the website, she manages all the stuff that comes in from my mailers. And from the website, people that ask questions, I redirect them to my agent and such, but Amy is like the creative guard at the gate. And she's just like, terrific at what she does.
Melissa Milner 1:31
Yes. So shout out to Amy Malkoff.
Vance Gilbert 1:34
She's also singing on my new album. So she's wearing all kinds of hats. Yeah, she's,
Melissa Milner 1:39
she's got a beautiful such a beautiful voice.
Vance Gilbert 1:42
Oh, it goes without saying, Yeah, her voice is stellar. So yeah, she's a she's a trusted musician in my circle. So...
Melissa Milner 1:51
Yeah. Can you introduce yourself to The Teacher As... listeners?
Unknown Speaker 1:55
Hi, Teacher As... listener, folks. I'm, I'm Vance Gilbert. And I am a singer songwriter that teaches songwriting, performance, and all the other connected things that deal with that. And I'm also a songwriter teacher that happens to perform I'm all those things.
Melissa Milner 2:16
Who happens to perform, come on, give a little bit, give a little bit more about the success of your performing and your albums.
Vance Gilbert 2:24
Well, you can, you can go to Vance, you can go to my website, or anywhere on the web and find my name around. But, you know, when I when I, I really wanted to be a song writer, coming out of college with my biology degree, oh, God help...
Melissa Milner 2:40
Biology?
Vance Gilbert 2:41
Yeah. That's my degree is in biology. So I come out of college with my biology degree, but I happen to have been playing bass and guitar for the last two and a half years. And I really wanted to be. I came to Boston and interviewed for some degrees and in biology, and I wasn't a very good biology student in college anyway. And I ended up cooking in restaurants for three years. And and in the midst of that cooking in restaurants, I was learning the Great American Songbook. And that's how I that's what I did for three years when I first came to Boston. And then yeah, somebody got wind of the fact that I did a little bit of music. And they asked me to come do a one of kind of, what would you call it a arts residency, writing songs with kids, and they sure I'll give it a shot. This was early 80s. Well, the early 80s was just post bussing. So they really needed somebody to represent when it came to, particularly being a, a musical, black male figure doing something outside of just teaching in a classroom or whatever. So I ended up getting work as a arts gun for hire in Boston and surrounding area public schools. As a guy that would put on shows with kids. I did everything we made puppets out of rocks, we did the paper bag puppets. We did sock puppets. I ended up with a couple of theater groups. The Loon And Heron Theatre in Brookline would take kids from Boston Public Schools and from Brookline Massachusetts Public Schools and once a week they would get together like a third grade classroom. We'd put them all together and we would work towards a show we'd do 10 classes and we'd work towards some sort of show and bringing, bringing to life the Tuskegee Airmen, or PT Barnum or the life of Madame Curie are all kinds of things that we didn't know anything about at the time. Because there was no web you know that someone to look up this stuff was insane. But we were pressed professed to know just a little bit more than the kids did enough to turn it into an arts thing. And there were a handful of arts groups that I became affiliated with that would do that a couple after school programs. And I was doing that and then playing these cocktail places at night, which was an opportunity again, to get the Great American Songbook together. I was singing everything from Gershwin to Stevie Wonder to Anita Baker to Madonna. Yeah, I was trying to sing everything on acoustic guitar and play. And then I'd go out and do these other things with the kids during the day. And that finally changed. I finally stopped teaching, per se in around a 1988 1989. That's about 10 years of that. And I started touring doing my music full time. And now the circle has come back around because I'm a I'm a lecturer at slash professor at the University of Colorado, Denver, for songwriting, and I've, I can show you these these five IDs.
Melissa Milner 6:33
Oh, yeah.
Vance Gilbert 6:34
All of them from Berklee College of Music because I'm a guest songwriting teacher there and I ended up you know, it, you end up coming full circle with these things, you end up after a certain while and people think you have enough expertise that you can teach.
Melissa Milner 6:50
Yes.
Vance Gilbert 6:50
And, and I think I can I have some methods in doing things.
Melissa Milner 6:58
Okay, so let's hear him. Let's hear the methods.
Vance Gilbert 7:03
Oh, my God.
Melissa Milner 7:04
It's a teaching podcast.
Vance Gilbert 7:07
Really? You want me to rundown a whole pedagogy. Don't use it pedagogy or pedagogy.
Melissa Milner 7:12
Write a song about it. Write a song. What? So Teacher As listeners, if you haven't noticed already, humor is definitely a big part of Vance's shows. And he, the way he engages the audience, and it's like your teaching up there. It really is. Because you have this way of sucking in the audience and using the humor and it's amazing.
Vance Gilbert 7:36
Well, thank you. Thank you, you know, I am engaging. You know, in my whole show, when I'm doing my show, where did you see me? Did you see me recently?
Melissa Milner 7:46
It's called Y O U T U B E.
Vance Gilbert 7:50
Okay. Yeah, yeah. So
Melissa Milner 7:52
I haven't had a chance to see you live, believe it or not.
Vance Gilbert 7:54
I mean, I've been one of my big touring things is that I do a lot of shows with the guy from Mad About You, Paul Reiser.
Melissa Milner 8:02
Yes.
Vance Gilbert 8:03
Or from Stranger Things, depending, depending on what generation you're from.
Vance Gilbert 8:07
I'm from both.
Vance Gilbert 8:08
Right. He started in stand up. So he has been touring stand up since well, 2014 2013. And I have done a mess of shows with him, uh, since then. And they've ramped up recently and I've been pretty steady out with him doing those shows and, and I really feel that the the 20 to 23 minutes and I'm out there that I need to be just about everything I need to be. I need to be musical. I need to be dulcet I need to be a teacher. But I need I need to be just enough in your face that you're enjoying it. But not so much in your face that you hate acoustic music. And by the time you figure out that you like what I'm doing, I'm done. I would just enough rope. Yeah, that's just enough rope to get to get done and get out of the way. So So yeah, that's, that's, that's what I do. And there is a whole honestly to my teaching. There is a there is a true pedagogy pedagogic. Like it said pedagogy, pedagogy, ah pedicle there's a there's a whole there is a method. There is a method to what I do when I'm teaching performance. And I've been getting hired for that which is actually a lot of fun. People will hire me for a one shot thing on a stage where they usually have a show. I get up and I have other singers come up that I put through their paces. And that ends up that ends up being a lot of fun because you can see there's a little bit of snake oil involved where I get people to change on the spot. Well, why don't you rather than singing that lyric, why don't you speak that lyric and that will put you more in the center of the song. And I'll do it particularly with people who sing really well. And I tell them, You know what, you're a beautiful singer and we're tired of it. We're tired of you singing. We... you're so dulcet and beautiful voice that we're missing your story. Get out of the way. Stop singing. Tell part of the story then go back to singing. Because that's what great storytellers do. And it also makes us appreciate your singing so much. That you can be such a beautiful singer and get out of the way it makes you seem mature.
Melissa Milner 10:37
And it's like the power of the pause in acting. Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 10:42
You bet. Or the power of the of the whisper.
Melissa Milner 10:47
Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 10:48
You know, all of that stuff. And it's, there's a lot of my pedaguagua. That is, I'm going to say different each time. Because I want to use the word, Melissa, I gotta use that word. There's a lot of pedaguagua that is on the fly. And there's a lot of it that I have done for seems like a million years. And I end up being a listener. I think any decent teacher ends up being a decent listener. They have I think they have to be. And I am not afraid to be wrong. Although I'd love people to try it my way first. You have had some funny, in a macabre sense. Funny times I... somebody came up and at a camp, I was teaching of adults. And they were singing and they started their song. And your voice is really high. And I was like, Wow. I said, Wait, stop, stop. Is there a way you don't? Is there a way to play this and another key? Because your voice is really high. And I don't think it's serving the song right now. And they turned to me and they said, Well, my voice is changing, because I'm transitioning. And I'm about three quarters of the way there and the voice has just come in to where it is. And that's I'm becoming a woman. And that's where I'm going to be. And I was like, Cool. Your voice is really high. I still, you know, I still I said, Well, let's do something else with it. And you know, I had to not take a beat. I had to just keep going. But I had I had stepped in it. And I'm glad I stepped in it in a way that was fair and accepting and loving. Because but I had to step in it. I had to, I had to do something. Because I wanted them to be as an effective singer as they wanted to be. So...
Melissa Milner 12:56
Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 12:57
And they felt comfortable enough to share with me what was going on. And we're friends to this day. But there we were. And that was a real learning moment for me. And hopefully a learning moment for them. I was... that's all we're here to do.
Melissa Milner 13:14
Yeah, that's really interesting, actually. Because, you know, there are plenty singers who sing high. But, you know, was it not like working for that song or the style of the song?
Vance Gilbert 13:26
Well, to be honest, it wasn't. Oh, man, you put me in a spot here. And I'm...
Melissa Milner 13:33
I'm just curious.
Vance Gilbert 13:34
I gotta go with the vulgar. I gotta go with the vulgar. It wasn't a pleasant sound.
Melissa Milner 13:38
Oh, so it didn't sound good.
Vance Gilbert 13:40
It wasn't serving any of the sound of something needed to happen because it was really
Melissa Milner 13:46
The high sound was not a pleasant sound.
Vance Gilbert 13:48
No, it was grating and what they needed to do was was kind of pull back. Yeah, and let it kind of ring. I think that was the thing that we finally went to do because they were really pushing on it as an Far be it for me to diagnose because I'm not a vocal therapist, per se, but they were pushing on it as if they were a real gravelly voiced man, which they weren't any longer. They were they were singing as as a woman. And that's where we had to be. It was very exciting in a way.
Melissa Milner 14:21
That's very that's very interesting, right? Yeah. So you, you teach like vocal performance, those are vocal performance, teaching conferences or whatever. Do you also teach songwriting?
Vance Gilbert 14:38
And one of the things I do one of the things about what I do is that those I find that those two things are inextricable the songwriting component and the the performance aspect of it. Sometimes a great song gets lost because it's being performed in such a way that the singer, songwriter performer is in the way. So So part of the songwriting will be why don't you sing this this way so that the lyric rings a little bit more? Maybe now we're looking at it maybe that's not the lyric you want there because there's a certain feeling that you're getting there with the singing. Maybe it's a different lyric. But do you really need that bridge? Do you need this a song even need or this song really needs a bridge? Pull up vocally there, speak that line. Oh, this this chorus at the end needs to be shouted. Time for you to sing your butt off.
Melissa Milner 15:43
Yeah. That's so interesting.
Vance Gilbert 15:46
It is very interesting. So it's a it's an amalgam of pedaguagua. That did I use that one already? Pedaguagua, bonjour, pedaguagua seva? So, so it's it can be a mix of things. If, if people let me do what I do. If people give me the opportunity to teach the whole performance package. The worst thing that can happen to these things for me, is when somebody says that give me an hour, you can't do that. It's just not enough. Melissa, I will run my mouth for 15 minutes of that hour.
Melissa Milner 16:29
To warm up and get them. Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 16:31
No, well basically, I do a piece that is 12 to 15 minutes on stepping on stage and plugging in the guitar. You never think about it when people plug in the guitar to do what they do they they come up if you see them look down for the hole to plug it in and says, does that engender confidence to the audience? Right? It's like, wow, if he can't find a hole in the guitar, what's his set gonna sound like? So I have them do a thing where they take the end of the cord and look out in the audience at the sound person and give a nod and plug in without looking at everybody in the audience goes. Oh, that person is ready. This singer is ready. So that's part of my...
Melissa Milner 17:11
That's such minutiae. I love it.
Vance Gilbert 17:13
It is all of this minutia of being part of my pedagogogue.
Melissa Milner 17:18
But that's because you're observant.
Vance Gilbert 17:21
I am observant. Yes. Yeah, I am. I am observant.
Melissa Milner 17:25
Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 17:26
What did you say?
Melissa Milner 17:29
You're observant, but you don't have a good memory. So early 80s, you just sort of fell into doing the teaching. Right?
Vance Gilbert 17:40
Yes.
Melissa Milner 17:41
You wanted to be a biologist/
Vance Gilbert 17:43
For a couple minutes, mmhm.
Melissa Milner 17:46
So like when you were growing up, you know, elementary, middle school, high school, was there a teacher or teachers that inspired you to be a biologist? Were there any that inspired you to you know, you obviously knew how to play some instruments. You were musical. Obviously, you were born to do this.
Vance Gilbert 18:06
I didn't start playing guitar till my sophomore year in college.
Melissa Milner 18:09
Wow!
Vance Gilbert 18:10
Yeah, very late. I had I will have to say, the handful of people that inspired me. My childhood was pretty rough. Through three years of college, I was homeless. My only steady home was the campus. But when I came home to my hometown, my parents had split, my dad had gone out to Philly somewhere without an address because he was on his fourth drunken driving charge, and they only give you three before they throw away the key. And my mom was paranoid schizophrenic. So I ended up and she moved to Maryland. And I ended up on couches and yards and such for every vacation in college, from like 1976 to 1979. So there were a lot of adults that I had to make the assessment as to whether they were serving me or not. And I know that sounds horrible. But I went to college at 16. So I was still a minor.
Melissa Milner 19:12
You went to college at 16? Explain.
Vance Gilbert 19:15
Well, I went to I went to I went to kindergarten when I was four and oh, and so many months. So I turned five in kindergarten, not because I was brilliant. And then I skipped second grade, which at the time in the 1960s was a Philadelphia thing where if you could count to 11 and a half between fingers and toes. I think they'd move you ahead because they thought I was bored in class and I was a little but I I ended up in third grade from second grade. They took me out to second grade after the first half of the year in second grade stuck me in third grade. So I ended up printing things and hooking them together because I didn't know how to do cursive So the reason why I'm telling you all this is that I didn't have serious mentors, that that I could look back on and say thank you to until what there was a Leon Erasm English teacher in high school, who encouraged us to write. I told him I wanted to write sci fi. And he said, I'd rather you didn't because you haven't studied quantum physics, which I thought is what I did. That's the face I made. I was like, what kind of thing is that? It turns out he was kind of more on the ball than not because there's a lot of F=MA and Newtonian and post Newtonian and stuff that you kind of should wrap yourself around to get good sci fi under your belt. And then Horace Scott was the guy that hired me to teach. I was teaching tennis during the summers I was a tennis instructor. And he kept hiring me each summer.
Vance Gilbert 21:01
And then I got to college. And I will have to say I started playing guitar at the same time that I was taking prose and then a poetry class one each semester with a guy named William Meredith. Now William Meredith ended up being a US Poet Laureate at some point, but he was teaching at this college Connecticut College in New London. And I think I got like a B or B plus in his prose writing class. I was pretty fair. But the poetry class I started bringing in my little guitar and singing horrible things oh my god, Melissa they were so dumb. They were so just they were just me rhyming things that because I was playing these chords and I could rhyme over them. I was so elated I'd never done it before. Yeah, hey, wishing well nothing to say but could plop when my money drops? Yeah, to a Poet Laureate of the United States. So end of the semester, I can't believe story Oh, my. Soon I'll get back to the pedagege of how I teach, pedagogy. Pet the dog. He brought... he called me into his office, I got this note in my mailbox. And he said, Vance, I have to give you a grade for for the semester. And I'm a professional. So I'm failing you. However, I'm not going to put an F on your transcript. I'm giving you a D. But I know how you can write because I saw you in the prose class. So personally, as writer to writer, I'm failing you.
Melissa Milner 22:57
Wow.
Vance Gilbert 22:59
Yeah, no. Yeah. I mean, like I was in tears. I was 17 years old in tears in front of this guy. Eighteen at that point. He said, I asked you to make poetry an off the clock evening thing. I just wanted you to come in with new work each week, maybe read something that I sent out. It wasn't going to be a hard class. But you came in with a guitar and frankly, at this isn't the work wasn't at all par. You were so wrapped up in trying to be musical that you forgot to do the poetry that I'd asked you.
Melissa Milner 23:34
That's fair.
Vance Gilbert 23:35
So I'm failing? Totally. And what I said back to him was I fully Oh, God. I said to him, I fully understand. And thank you for taking the time.
Melissa Milner 23:52
Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 23:53
That's what I said that this guy I mean, he wasn't poet laureate, then. But this guy had faith in something that I did. And I let him down. Oh, boy.
Melissa Milner 24:03
Yeah, that's major.
Vance Gilbert 24:05
I thought maybe. I mean, I wish he had seen that. I'd become a even half decent songwriter. And I think I might be have outside of lyrics. I think I have 10 poems, that I would say are poems. But I wish he could see me.
Melissa Milner 24:24
Yeah. Is he still alive?
Vance Gilbert 24:27
No, hewas like, 70 Then he'd be back then.
Melissa Milner 24:30
Darn.
Vance Gilbert 24:31
like 130.
Melissa Milner 24:34
But he made you realize it's not I got to focus on both the storytelling or the poetry and the music.
Vance Gilbert 24:41
Well he made me focus. He made me realize that I had to focus on being serious about writing. I'm not sure he cared what it was. But I needed to make it a an activity. That was for real,
Melissa Milner 24:56
Even if there's some humor in it.
Vance Gilbert 24:58
Oh, no. Good, are you right? I got two words for that Tom Robbins, you know, it's, uh, yeah, yeah. It's It's, uh, you can be humorous, you're gonna humorous as all get out and still be a great writer, I don't think he had any problem with that I just needed to be truthful in the fact that I was chasing words around, I needed to chase words around and mean it. And I did mean it then honestly, Melissa, but what didn't happen was that I didn't do the the friggin' assignment, he asked me to do an assignment. And I didn't do it. And I got what I got, you know, and that. And I think the other part of that is that this guy was a real teacher. Holy smokes. He was he was holding me fully accountable as an adult, fully accountable, but he wasn't gonna ruin my life with an F. Yeah. But he was showing up giving me a D.
Melissa Milner 25:58
But he waited till the end of the term to tell you what you were doing wrong? That's the only thing rest in peace. But that's the only thing like more immediate feedback. You could have changed that around much earlier on in the course
Vance Gilbert 26:13
I you know, I don't know. I don't remember what what the what the lineage of what I should what I could or should have been. Maybe it was, uh, maybe I could have handed in a bulk of work that said what I'd been doing or something? Yeah, I think I could have probably done anything if I had handed him a ream of great poems that day, and he would have changed the grade. I don't think it mattered to him. All he knows is that every time I came in, knowing what the assignment was, he let me know that I wasn't quite doing the assignment.
Vance Gilbert 26:49
Oh, he did let you know in the moment. Okay, good.
Vance Gilbert 26:51
Yeah. I just Yeah.
Melissa Milner 26:57
And you were young. I mean, you're still young at that point.
Vance Gilbert 27:00
I was. I, you know, I couldn't legally drink in the bar on campus. So my like junior year. And I didn't drink anyway, because of the crazy upbringing, but just as a bench marker, so that gave me such a great appreciation for teaching and then being a tennis instructor. I had to have them as a method of teaching tennis at the time, which is totally different than what you see people use on TV today. And was it a totally different pedaguigui as French pedagogy? They have Eve Craft and John Conroy method of teaching, and I did that through the tennis department, the rec department in the town where I was homeless. And so anytime I filled out a form for one of these teaching jobs in Boston in the 80s. I was like, Well, have you ever taught blah, blah, blah, before as well, I was a tennis instructor. And it was, I mean, it was like documented. But yeah, I was in charge of 20 kids at a time and...
Melissa Milner 28:06
Oh.
Vance Gilbert 28:06
You know, each one. Alright, hit a forehand. Next. Next I'm tossing balls, you know, and such. So yeah, I that was the beginning of and they didn't expect much. All you had to do is have a clean record and be willing to work with kids coming up in the 80s. They needed black role models like nobody's business. So that was the beginning of my teaching, quote, unquote, career in Boston.
Melissa Milner 28:32
That's great. Wow.
Vance Gilbert 28:33
Then I got out of it. And now I'm back in, then that's some,
Melissa Milner 28:36
They pull you right back in.
Vance Gilbert 28:39
I'm really talking too much. So you asked me what time it is. I tell you exactly how a clock works. I was like,
Melissa Milner 28:45
No, you're doing great. Tips for songwriting. Like, I'm a teacher, I'm teaching weather. And I want to jazz things up. Now I can go on YouTube and find videos of songs about weather or I can be really creative and write a song for my students. Any tips for a teacher that, you know feels they have some creativity and humor and would like to do that? Like... Do you start with just a list of the main concepts that you want to make put in a song? Or do you start with just what's the first line gonna be like, like, where do you start?
Vance Gilbert 29:22
Sure, you could start with any of those. You can go with the after school special list of things. You could you could you know, wear a stupid clown costume or something like you're on the electric company. Thank you, Morgan Freeman.
Melissa Milner 29:35
Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 29:37
But you know, the truth is, you might be better served if you get them to write a song about weather.
Melissa Milner 29:44
Yes, like we talked, I was talking at the beginning, that sometimes at the end of the unit, you know, make a poster make a podcast da da da or one of the options sometimes is write a song or rap, but like how do you support students in that?
Vance Gilbert 30:00
Vance Gilbert 30:00
Yeah, just I think one of the great ways of supporting students that way is making this classroom a safe space to be artistic in, and I think one of the greater ways of doing that is to be willing to be crazy and stumble yourself, you write a rap, you you do something and, and fail, please fail. Also find out what kids in the classroom are leaders and might be willing to do that very thing. And they other kids that are not leaders maybe want to be choral.
Melissa Milner 30:38
They love to do the beatboxing.
Vance Gilbert 30:40
alright, or the ones in the background that that why, if you're doing steps, you know, there's so much on YouTube and Tiktok and Instagram, people doing steps to music, you can find pre recorded tracks to things where people can do steps to, but I think you need to, you need to be as willing to be as a little bit nutty as you're asking them to because they have a they have a code of ex, I would say a code of behavior. A code of exposure is what I think kids have they have a code of exposure that oh, okay, I'm, I'm willing to do this. But that's it.
Melissa Milner 31:21
Yeah. So sometimes I'll just like improv in front of the kids. And you know, like, I'll give an example. And I'll be like, denona, and I'll just start singing. It's embarrassing, but they laugh, they love it. They look at each other like she's nuts. But they I think that is just doing that throughout the year getting them to see that we can be crazy in here. And we can be funny. Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 31:42
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there's other things that we mentioned rap a lot. A lot of kids might feel exposed by rap, because they you know, depending on, you know, if it's a mixed classroom, and the black kids, you know, we have to be careful because they might think that they're supposed to rap because that's their music or what you mean. That can get kind of complicated. I think one of the things that's fun is maybe have a rap opera, where you do some rap and some opera, where people sing in a fake voice with bravado. Oh, the weather's gonna be cloudy. Chorus: cloudy, cloudy, cloudy, lower pressure, lower pressure everywhere.
Melissa Milner 32:31
There's a front coming in.
Vance Gilbert 32:33
Right. So that's not going to insult anybody.
Melissa Milner 32:37
I liked the opera idea.
Melissa Milner 32:40
Or put anybody on the spot with their potential cultureality?
Melissa Milner 32:47
Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 32:48
Oh look at that. I'm making up some words. Now look at me.
Melissa Milner 32:51
But I know... I know what you're saying. All right. So what are your thoughts on the very probably overused, take a popular already known song and just change the lyrics?
Vance Gilbert 33:06
No problem with that.
Melissa Milner 33:07
Yeah, cuz that's fun, right. And it's a little easier, more accessible. But what a great ideal to get it to the point where they're coming up with the melody and they're coming. I think that's cool.
Vance Gilbert 33:20
Oh, if I could find a picture of me working with a bunch of kids on dental health. We took Oh, my God tells you how far back it was. It was the 80s and it was Aretha Franklin's Jump, Jump jump to it. Right. And we had them go brush, brush, brush your teeth did let it was like, the kids were all bought into it. And one was dressed up with a hat like I toothpaste like cap and a long big toothbrush, brush brush, brush your teeth. And you know, you're halfway there because you and you give them permission. Yeah, you know, the blank slate of coming up with a wrap is daunting for adults and children alike.
Melissa Milner 34:07
I agree.
Vance Gilbert 34:09
And just, you know, can we do that? Yeah, you can do you can make better. You can take you can put new lyrics on that. And nowadays you I mean, I don't know how many of the things you could find. But there's many situations where you can go and find music minus one kind of things. You can pull up the track to something and they can come up with the lyrics of its you know, you still have the beat so many ways to come up with beats. and such. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you don't have to be particularly musical. You just have to be willing. Yeah. I believe. Yeah,
Vance Gilbert 34:47
Oh that's so cool. Do you have a favorite song? I'm just curious about that. Because I wonder, you know, if if there was a song or a favorite song that you would maybe share with students like elementary age students, or middle school or high school? Are there different songs that you feel? Like if you could expose them to this song? It would make it would change their world.
Vance Gilbert 35:09
Oh my gosh, wow, you really put me on the spot with that? I know, right? Well, I made a promise to never play down to children. And I don't know how often I've lived up to it, but it's probably what I think of is one of the best songs of all time. And it would probably be Jimmy Webb slash Glen Campbell Wichita Lineman I've done it... I mean it's just such a great song. It's so weird, it's odd.
Melissa Milner 35:41
Here it comes, listeners if you've never heard Vance Gilbert.
Vance Gilbert 35:49
I am the line in for the county and I drive the main road searching in the sun for another overload I hear you singing through the wire I can hear you through the wine and the Wichita Lineman is still on the line I know I need a short vacation but it don't look like rain if it snows that stretch down south will never stand the strain. And I need you more than want you and I want you for all time. And the Wichita Lineman is still on the line yeah baby cause I need you more than I want. And I want you for all time. Don't you do that another lemon on the line yeah? Yeah. I bet I'm the first one to wrap on the Wichita Lineman. And I hope it's just thinking I'm a fine man, yeah.
Vance Gilbert 37:48
And I need you more than want you and I want you for all time, and the Wichita Lineman is still on Oh
Vance Gilbert 38:19
I've never rapped on that song before.
Melissa Milner 38:21
That was first of all the song itself is beautiful. It's very, it's like it's like James Taylory kind of well, the melody is gorgeous.
Vance Gilbert 38:31
It is always been man, the teachers that Jimmy Webb must have had. And he was writing things like that in his early 20s. He's still around. He's maybe 10 years, 12 years older than I am. When he's still healthy. And one of his people, one of my people works for him. And he's still we were at the same booking agency for a while.
Melissa Milner 38:54
But why have I heard of Glenn Campbell, but I haven't heard of what is it? Jimmy Webb.
Vance Gilbert 38:59
You've heard of Jimmy Webb.
Melissa Milner 39:02
Yeah?
Vance Gilbert 39:02
By the time I get to Phoenix, she'll be rising.
Melissa Milner 39:06
Yeah. But I've never knew the name. I never knew his name isn't well known.
Vance Gilbert 39:11
No one talks about the writers, the who talks about teachers.
Melissa Milner 39:15
I know.
Vance Gilbert 39:16
Who talks about Meredith McLeod Bethune. That's right. That's right. Who knows who any teachers are. And I throw that one out there. I knew that she ended up going into government and such.
Melissa Milner 39:28
Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 39:28
How many people talk about teachers? Yeah, that's why teachers and teachers and writers nobody.
Melissa Milner 39:35
Yes, screen writers a lot. I mean, unless you follow that. You know, yeah.
Vance Gilbert 39:40
I just gave a I just gave a student a whole rash of bananas because they played a song. They'll go on the web. And it's a college student. And they'll well this is a song by they have to do a cover as one of their for a jury for a jury thing and we're doing pre juries now at the University of Colorado, Denver. And they, they like the song is by blah, blah, blah. And I said, Okay, I'm gonna look it up. The song is actually written by seven people. So I, I said to them, I said, Look, you have to change your language. Well am I supposed to say all seven people, either in a comic way, or you need to change your language so that you're saying this is a song that is, was written for, or made popular by or done by. But you can't just say this was a song by x artist because of this very thing we're talking about.
Melissa Milner 40:44
That's interesting.
Vance Gilbert 40:46
It is interesting.
Melissa Milner 40:47
You gotta give credit where credit is due. Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 40:49
Absolutely. I mean, that's the that's, that's the whole part of the part of the gig. I mean, and you know, back to teachers, I don't think teachers are walking around looking for somebody, like, notching them somewhere giving them credit for everything they do. But I think if we recognize teachers more, we'll get more out of teachers. Boom, boom, I think I'm pretty
Melissa Milner 41:14
Beautifully. I think you need to run. Go and grab that guitar. Let's do it. Yeah, it's true. It's true. I think, um, you know, that it's sad to me that you didn't have a teacher like in elementary school or middle school that inspired you. Because that says something about the system.
Vance Gilbert 41:39
We just know, you know, I remember teachers that were nice. But I knew they weren't getting the job done. You know, I was we were bused from one school to another at some point and kind of plopped in these classrooms and high school. I remember, there were some people that were in high school finally, maybe when it came together. Yeah. Lionel Hampton taught French. And he was accommodating Lou Welsh, who he was a psychology teacher, but also would play after school basketball with a lot of the kids. And oh, but he was kind and he did a summer program. By invite only he just, like, rented out a classroom and had us come to talk about psychology issues. I mean, he was cool. The Dr. Franceschini taught us to do math in our head and get close. And I did I really remember not paying as close attention to it as I could would have. Yeah, you know, the test when you when I give you the test here is if you these answers, if you get close, we're good. You know, that's that's just give me the concepts like, wow. Dr. Fran, I don't know if he's still alive. I don't know.
Melissa Milner 42:58
Where was your high school?
Vance Gilbert 42:59
Willingboro, New Jersey, John F. Kennedy High School, Dr. Franceschini. I think he ended up being on the school board or administration at some point, but he was a he was a math guy.
Melissa Milner 43:11
So you weren't in band or chorus?
Vance Gilbert 43:15
No, I took clarinet for like us a semester in seventh grade. I was very entertaining to myself and my friends. Can you imagine? I you know, I could make cartoon character sounds and do comedy and singing came singing came late.
Melissa Milner 43:39
You have a beautiful voice by the way.
Vance Gilbert 43:41
Well, thank you so much. It is the it was the last thing to come together. It's only been in the last 15 years that I sing with the confidence of knowing. Yeah, I'm singing in tune. I'm singing that well.
Melissa Milner 44:00
Did you take lessons for the singing? Or did you just teach yourself?
Vance Gilbert 44:05
I did i i studied in Boston with a man by the name of Eddie Watson, who is a sort of pop music singer, teacher. And he was in downtown Boston and I took with him for two years. That was about the extent of it. And then I took a lot of his concepts. And it's kind of listen to other people that have taken and learned from the streets of music, what the whole vocal thing was about. There's also a guy in Nashville by name of Ron Browning. And he's worked with a handful of slouches like Allison...
Melissa Milner 44:49
Oh, don't even say it.
Vance Gilbert 44:51
Oh yeah.
Melissa Milner 44:53
Ah, Alison Krauss.
Vance Gilbert 44:55
Yeah, and Carrie Underwood. Yeah, they come to his house and he comes to this teaching festival in Colorado and has done so far. And I'll come and sit in his classes and sponge up whatever he's doing and steal. And I've taken a couple of lessons with him just to steal ideas. Yeah. For example, I and you have to put this on the show this was this is so important for me this is it was somebody who was coming to this thing in Colorado, who was a non singer. He was one of those people that got told to go to gym, a real disservice. education wise, and so he started playing a lot of fingerstyle guitar and would accompany his his wife, Amy, who sang like a broken wings sparrow. She was just a beautiful, she sings so beautifully, but he came to me at some point, he says, Vance, I want to learn how to sing. And I was like, Oh, my God, what do I do? What do I do? So I called Ron Browning. I said, Look, Ron, you know, this guy, he comes to this thing, Colorado. What do I do with him? He says people who you know, people who have never grown up around water, you don't throw them into the deep end. He says, teach, teach him nursery rhymes. Have him sing nursery rhymes, without the guitar to st're afraid to think baby steps?
Melissa Milner 46:41
Simple melody. Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 46:44
That's right.
Melissa Milner 46:45
Yeah, you're afraid to scaffold? Right? That's fascinating. I always had the impression that some people just won't, they don't have any or they won't be able to sing. Like they can't do the Happy Birthday. Like they've heard that song a zillion times. They still can't do it. Like they're never going to learn it. But if they were practicing it and wanting to do it bad enough, they'd be able to hear it eventually, right?
Vance Gilbert 47:09
No, no. And that's that's such an untruth. Right. I mean, first of all, happy birthday is a monster.
Melissa Milner 47:16
It's pretty tough. Starting low and yeah, it's range.
Vance Gilbert 47:21
It's like the Star Spangled Banner but with the cake.
Melissa Milner 47:26
Oh, my God. That's a quote right there.
Vance Gilbert 47:28
Right. It's like it happy birthday is a...
Melissa Milner 47:30
It is. It is.
Vance Gilbert 47:35
So that no, that's no place to start. But yeah, Baa Baa Black Sheep. Or ABC, which is the same song. I love when people discover that those two are the same song.
Melissa Milner 47:45
That's like Aura Lee and the Elvis song are the same. Love Me Tender.
Vance Gilbert 47:50
Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. So um, so that was such a revelation from one teacher to another teacher. And, you know, it made me realize that just because I was a teacher, I still needed to be willing to learn. I find myself having to tell myself that over and over again.
Melissa Milner 48:11
Yes. I think all teachers. Yeah. I mean, and what you said, like you go to the seminar or the conference, just to get a couple more gems and ideas. You know, teachers should be going in and observing other teachers. We don't do it enough. We don't do it enough.
Vance Gilbert 48:30
Absolutely. And we we need to give license for theory. is the other thing. Show him show him your best shake. Oh, like show them you're like, yeah. Oh, have you tried this? Please, Please steal my idea. You know, we're, you know, teachers aren't going to get famous for teaching for keeping ideas. We've proven that but we all you know, this is a tide raises all ships, particularly songwriting and singing. If I can get the casual open mic singer, to do a great job at the open mic. And there's five people at this open mic that really do a great job. And there's people in the audience that come to the open mic, they're gonna be like, well, when they had music here in the weekends, like paid music, because open mic is an old French word that means we don't pay for music. So what they can cut, they said, Well, this, the open mic is great. I can only imagine how great music is going to be in a weekend. What a great town this is that you can go to hear music five days a week. Even the open mic is great. Yeah, boy, I sold a whole bunch of french fries at night at the open mic. I can stay open another month. Blah, blah, blah, tourism all raised. I mean, it's, yep. kind of goofy and perfunctory sounding, but I believe that that's how it can happen.
Melissa Milner 49:59
Yeah, Did you did you started off kind of like jazz and then change to folk or like what was that whole thing about? And you obviously do a lot of improv within a song like you just did you know, like, what's, what's the, the use of improv for a teacher?
Vance Gilbert 50:21
Well, yes, yes, jazz has a lot of improv, but there are rules. In a lot of ways I don't improv on every song. In fact, one of the things I like to get across to students is that there's so much of you getting across. Artistically, when you do the thing straight, that you don't need to be superfluous with notes and rhythm, and such you do. You sing the song straight, and it sounds like you. Great art does not come from departure. In my mind, it doesn't mean that you have to leave the framework of the thing you're doing. It'd be great if you could just stay within the framework of what you're doing. But have your voice be the thing that resonates in it.
Melissa Milner 51:12
That's totally teaching. That's what teaching is.
Vance Gilbert 51:14
Exactly.
Melissa Milner 51:16
Yeah
Vance Gilbert 51:16
Exactly.
Melissa Milner 51:18
Oh, I like that.
Vance Gilbert 51:18
So that's, I mean, did I Where did I start, I started you know, I always want fancied myself sort of a jazz singer. But some of the first albums I had were James Taylor albums in college and such when, yeah, r&b albums and pop music as a kid from Philly. I was a mixed bag, you know, jazz became the thing because it was the new thing to learn to how to sing and but I've been, I've been everywhere man. I went through a stage where I was just doing acapella English music for a while. That was really kind of fun. And then there's great country out there. I mean, it was a couple years ago, I was all Chris Stapleton and Jason Isbell, because they were the new alt country guys and writing unbelievable lyrics. My playlists will go from them to Kendrick Lamar to constant repeat of Joni Mitchell's a free man in Paris on it just I just can't stop playing it. Yeah, cord and spark, cord and spark.
Melissa Milner 52:35
So you mentioned earlier Alison Krauss.
Vance Gilbert 52:39
What a voice.
Melissa Milner 52:40
So I mean, I didn't even know I liked bluegrass. I didn't even know until that Coen Brothers movie came out. You know, the one I'm talking about? Oh, Brother Where Art Thou. And I'm like, This is my music. I love this music. And that's when I found out about Alison Krauss and all that I just I'm like, this is the best music ever. I love it. I love it. And I'm not like a big fan of country. But I love bluegrass and that whole folk bluegrass, yeah. Wow.
Vance Gilbert 53:16
Yeah, it's it can be you know, that's part of the sin of music categorization is it can leave you dangling in space as to what what it is you what it is you like,
Melissa Milner 53:34
Yeah, and you might be missing out? Because it's called country or right. Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, that go down to the river to pray and all those oh my gosh, with the harmonies and her voice and I'm like, Oh, all right. If I were to be a singer, this is what I would be singing like, this is like this it.
Vance Gilbert 53:55
Right. And the realm I mean, I'll give the Coen Brothers big credit for that because in the realm of from Alison Krauss to Iris DeMent, whose voices you have to you have to really figure out what Iris is. You have to... it's an acquired taste. I love it. Like she's, she's freaking terrific. She and she's nice. I've never met Allison but I met Iris DeMent. Nice people. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's that whole thing that good teachers do. It's that, that I think good musicians do too. Is that listening? It's few. You know, when I think of Questlove, the guy that yeah, Jimmy Fallon's drummer and bandleader.
Melissa Milner 54:41
Yeah, his he's the one who did that doc, right. That summer of Summer of Soul. That was fantastic.
Vance Gilbert 54:49
But he knows everything he would he knows good bluegrass when he sees it. I'm sure his classical chops are on the money. Yep, just like Branford Marsalis would be or John Baptist... same. Yep. Yeah, these folks are they don't just eenie meenie miney mo, they pick a genre and they excel in it, but they are musical. Because music is out there and music doesn't. Music doesn't have a category. We have categories for music.
Melissa Milner 55:23
Yes. Yeah. Oh, that reminds me of the Paul Simon with Graceland where he had. Well, that whole album where he had the African. The South African singers. I don't remember the name of the group. Lady Smith Black Mambazo. Like what? Thank you. That whole album. That was another thing that was just like, oh, like, just for me.
Vance Gilbert 55:47
I mean, he's you know, Paul Simon is Paul Simon. I get aggravated at Paul Simon that he was. He was sing the word crap twice on the same album. When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school, yeah. 4:00 in the morning. crap out yawning. Which is probably the best bridge written in any song pop song ever. Yeah, ever, ever, ever. But he sings the word crap. And yeah...
Melissa Milner 56:25
I never noticed that.
Vance Gilbert 56:27
Yeah, there's a singer. There's an English singer. I can't remember her name. Who did a cover of that and she's changed that we're sacked down by we're gonna morning sacked down. You're in love, which really works quite nice. Yeah. Oh, who says crapped out. Yeah, seriously. Yeah. Huh. 4:00, in the morning, fecaled out. 4:00 in the morning, pedagoged out. No that's not the word.
Melissa Milner 56:57
That's yeah, anyway. Well, he and I also love his voice. So...
Vance Gilbert 57:02
Oh, it's so calm, it just. He just did he just retired. Can you believe that?
Melissa Milner 57:06
No.
Vance Gilbert 57:07
Sometimes you have to say just no mas.
Melissa Milner 57:10
I know. I suppose. Well, speaking of no mas. What it's like, Is this okay, that I'm taking this much time with you.
Vance Gilbert 57:23
What I don't care. Girl, what else am I gonna do?
Melissa Milner 57:23
I'm loving this.
Vance Gilbert 57:26
I remember sitting in the living room, and my mom listening to music. And the song went past. And I was five easily and I grabbed something that looked like a microphone. And I went into the kitchen and I crooned. He wore purple corduroy Bum Bum bum. She thought that was the funniest thing in the world. You know, blue velvet, purple corduroy. I was five. So I learned to be funny early.
Melissa Milner 58:01
There you go, there you go.
Vance Gilbert 58:03
And it ends up. Comedy ends up being a big part of my day to day.
Melissa Milner 58:11
And I think I think Paul Reiser appreciates it.
Vance Gilbert 58:16
Oh, I think he does, too. I mean, I think what Paul loves about what I do is that I'm not just another comedian in front of him, which takes the air out of the room. I'm a musician that happens to be simultaneously dulcet and funny. So yeah, he loves that.
Melissa Milner 58:35
Yeah. Oh, he's a smart man. He's a smart man. Yeah.
Vance Gilbert 58:39
He's a he's a genius. He sees so fun. And if we have a string of shows together, we'll we'll hang out together a little bit after the show. And break down our shows. Well, I think I did this. I do. Vance, what do you think about this routine here? I was like, Are you really asking?
Melissa Milner 58:56
Nice.
Vance Gilbert 58:57
Paul Reiser is asking me about a routine. But truth is since 2014, I've seen his show more times than anybody else. Show our planet. Yeah. So why not ask me. And I'm cautious about my response. You know, am I a teacher at that point? No. Am I a coach? No. Probably not. I am.
Melissa Milner 59:20
That's interesting.
Vance Gilbert 59:22
I'm a What am I am appear.
Melissa Milner 59:24
Yes.
Vance Gilbert 59:25
Yeah. Yeah. I'm appear with suggestions. I'm a I'm a backboard. I don't really have to. Oh, yeah, I've been done. Well, that routine was great. Oh, right. Well, that routine didn't do in this time when it didn't last time. There's a lot of information in something like that.
Melissa Milner 59:46
Yep. And I'm sure he's like, yep, you're right, right. Oh, yeah. Like he sees it.
Vance Gilbert 59:51
Yeah. And I'm watching him on stage. I'm watching him. Take I mean, one of the things I've watched recently with him is take a routine that I know He did seven years ago, and a piece of that and drop it into this new routine. It's like, oh my god, did you really just... Holy smokes, dude. You, you took part of the credit card routine that I remember you doing in 2015. And you dropped it in to the tail end of something in 2022. He said, Well, I don't know if I'll do it again. But it worked tonight. So you know, is that
Melissa Milner 1:00:32
and that's the immediate feedback. There you go when you have an audience,
Vance Gilbert 1:00:36
but But Is that is that? Will he script that in? Probably not. He's on a roll. He has. It's like being in front of the classroom. Yeah. He has big, not big, medium sized talking points that have decided routines in them. And if he's feeling it, he's heading off to the side just a little with something old, or something brand new. Something like he came up with ah, oh my god, this was just a couple of weeks ago. Somebody was operating a followspot. And they left him in the dark. And he came back and he looked up at them and he said, I'm not moving that quickly. It was brilliant. It was brilliant. It
Melissa Milner 1:01:33
I'm sure he did it with like that he probably overdid the Jewishy sounding voice when he said it to
Vance Gilbert 1:01:40
a little
Melissa Milner 1:01:43
You know, like a little bit of like, hello
Vance Gilbert 1:01:46
You know, I'm not moving that quickly. You know, it might have had just this slight Inkling of oy vey on the back end of it
Melissa Milner 1:01:54
A little bit a little bit. And I'm Jewish so I could say well, it's he's he's he's
Vance Gilbert 1:02:03
He's brilliant. Yeah,
Melissa Milner 1:02:04
It's so nice to hear he's a good guy.
Vance Gilbert 1:02:06
Oh my god. I think I my best my best education for rule for working the stage musically is watching a comic to get your best stage education from a comic as a musician is
Melissa Milner 1:02:22
Its timing right?
Vance Gilbert 1:02:25
Well there is there's there's a whole realm of it there's like how he works the stage where he walks to on certain points on different points. It's it's almost you almost have to see the show 10 or 11 times to see how genius it is where he says where he says this thing over here to this side of the audience and get back to the center point and then put the mic back.
Melissa Milner 1:02:48
What Are you zooming in on like right now in your work? Is it mostly doing the stuff with Paul? Or is it mostly are you teaching what are you zooming in right now?
Vance Gilbert 1:02:58
I don't put a lot of zoom in on my teaching my teaching is done at whenever the teaching day is done to be honest, yeah, I just finished mixing my newest album last week. So I'm looking to do sequencing and artwork and everything for that in the coming weeks and month so that's where my focus really is. This podcast tonight would be probably in my heart of hearts and be more correct and be called the musician as... well because teaching is something that although I spend 10 hours a week on its music that is my primary focus.
Melissa Milner 1:03:47
Do you want to do one more song?
Vance Gilbert 1:03:49
Sure
Vance Gilbert 1:04:03
You can live on pie and whisky, but you surely won't live too long
Vance Gilbert 1:04:15
One is a sweet as your very first kiss. The other gonna go down strong. Neither one will sustain you. When the other make your belly lame and go all wrong. You can live on pie and whiskey, but you surely won't live too long. If you can sing yourself a lullaby like your mama sang to you, hers was just like ringing a bell, yours is like a worn out shoe, she had a voice just like honey, yours just like a leather you can sing yourself a lullaby like your mama sang to you, You can cry cry cry like tomorrow but yesterday has come and gone, hijack the pie and whiskey kidnap your mama's song, worn out shoes aren't made for walking, are beautiful walking you better get a walk in because you ain't gonna be here alone. You can cry cry cry you can sing yourself a lullaby, you can live on pie and whiskey, but you surely won't live too long. Mmmm, yeah.
Melissa Milner 1:07:14
Oh, this is amazing. Thank you so much.
Vance Gilbert 1:07:17
Oh, it's such a blast. Thank you for having me. Thanks for thinking of me.
Melissa Milner 1:07:22
For my blog, transcripts of this episode, and links to any resources mentioned, visit my website at www.theteacher as.com. You can reach me on Twitter and Instagram @melissabmilner and I hope you check out The Teacher As… Facebook page for episode updates. Thanks for listening. And that's a wrap.