Episode 13: The Teacher As Musician with Nico de Villiers
Nico’s podcast
What Would Mozart Do? podcast
Ways to reach Nico:
Website: https://www.nicodevilliers.com/
Email: nico.devilliers@gsmd.ac.uk
Transcript:
(transcription by kayla.r.fainer@gmail.com)
Melissa Milner 00:09
Hi, this is Melissa Milner. Welcome to The Teacher As... podcast. The goal of this weekly podcast is to help you explore your passions and learn from others in education and beyond to better your teaching. The Teacher As... will highlight uncommon parallels to teaching, as well as share practical ideas for the classroom.
In this episode, I interview Nico de Villiers. Nico is South African and is now living in London. He is a freelance coach for singers and is a coach on the vocal faculty at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama. Nico's PhD is on the songs of Dutch born American composer, Richard Hageman.
I met Nico online through a Facebook page for podcasters, and our podcasts have similar themes. Nico is the host of the podcast, What Would Mozart Do? In this interview, Nico talks about collaborating, listening acutely, giving feedback and responding, and supporting the singers that he coaches. Enjoy my interview with Nico de Villiers.
Welcome, Nico de Villiers.
Nico de Villiers 01:14
Hello, Melissa. Thank you very much for having me on your podcast.
Melissa Milner 01:18
What would you like The Teacher As... listeners to know about you?
Nico de Villiers 01:21
Well, I am a vocal coach for opera singers, and I'm also a pianist. And it's a role that pianists often take on, pianists that work with singers, that we are coaches, that we can deal with language and interpretation of music and the poetry, etc. And then we are basically an extra pair of ears for the singers to give them feedback.
And alongside that, I also do concert work as a pianist. And I'm also a researcher, myself, in musicology, and also run my own podcast where I interview people about their work and talk to various musicians.
Melissa Milner 02:11
So you're a busy person.
Nico de Villiers 02:12
Yeah, I don't like it not to be busy. So I make sure that I fill my time.
Melissa Milner 02:20
From all the work that you just mentioned, what is your proudest moment in your work so far?
Nico de Villiers 02:27
I must say it was when I got my PhD. It's a dream that I had since I was 11, a goal that I set for myself. And I just basically, over time, worked towards that goal all the time. And I got my PhD in October 2018, which was in musicology and also in performance.
So my work was focusing on an American composer, Richard Hageman, who wrote a number of songs. He died in 1966, but he wrote a number of songs for solo singers and piano. And since that is the field in which I specialized, I did my PhD research on his songs, and not only analyzing the songs, but also looking at the various ways that one can interpret the songs and the poetry behind it.
Melissa Milner 03:33
Wow, that's so cool. That's amazing.
Nico de Villiers 03:38
Thank you.
Melissa Milner 03:39
What will you be doing moving forward with this degree and this musicology understanding?
Nico de Villiers 03:47
That's a very good question. Because often people do a PhD, and then thereafter, it's like, well, what now? And I will be honest, I had the same feeling for a few months, actually, after finishing the degree. Because it's been such a goal for such a long time that I was sort of blinkered just towards this goal and then needed to work out what am I going to do with my work and my life thereafter.
So the PhD helps me in the academic work that I'm doing. It is sort of a license to let your voice be heard in certain academic circles. So following up from the PhD, I co-authored the first critical biography on Richard Hageman. And what I mean by critical biography is it's not just telling his story, his life story, but look at his various compositions.
He composed for voice and piano. He composed film scores, composed for orchestra. And we looked at various of these pieces, trying to get his identity as a musician through the music, analyzing it in structure, but also looking at what kind of things that happened in his life might be projected through his music. It's not always the case that if a composer writes, say, for instance, as a silly example, a sad song, it doesn't mean the composer was necessarily sad. But it's the way that they are drawn to certain things or certain themes that might be then transferred from their lives into their work.
And so yes, that is what we dealt with in the critical biography. And I say we, I had two co-authors. One is Kathryn Kalinak from Rhode Island College - she's a specialist in film music - and Asing Walthaus, who is an editor for a newspaper in the Netherlands, in Leeuwarden in the Netherlands, which is where Richard Hageman was born. And so the three of us collaborated on this book for Peter Lang Publications, and the manuscript is actually with the publisher at the moment. And we're awaiting news of when the book will be released.
Melissa Milner 06:32
Well, that's exciting. You mentioned collaboration, and that, obviously, is one parallel between musicians and teachers. And the other thing I heard you say, I think, earlier was about feedback. What qualities do musicians have that are similar to teachers? Or what skills do they need, what transferable skills?
Nico de Villiers 06:53
Right. Well, as musicians, I think we are, from our earliest lessons, we are made aware of the ability and the need to listen acutely, and first and foremost acutely to what we create ourselves. Solo pianists, of course, tend to spend a lot of time on their own, listening to what they are creating. But I'm a collaborative pianist, meaning that I work with various other people.
So I don't only need to focus on what I create and how I'm playing, but I need to listen to my partners what they are creating, and then respond in a way that is supporting their musical decisions that they make as they are singing or playing an instrument.
Melissa Milner
That sounds so similar to what we call active listening, when we're trying to teach students to really listen when they're in small groups, and respond and be present.
Nico de Villiers
Absolutely. I mean, talking about small groups, I think a wonderful parallel that you can draw is with a string quartet, four string players playing at the same time. But they are not only listening to each other to play in tune, that is sort of a given. It's more in responding to certain types of phrasing or coloring or a little articulation of a small phrase that might be played by the violin. And then a few moments later, it's played by the cello, and they would want to match that.
And it's not something-- I mean, it's something that you can rehearse and be aware of that that is what you want to do. But every performance is going to be different. So within the process of performing, you need to then acutely listen to what my partner is doing at that point, and how am I going to respond to that. The core thing for musicians and teachers, the parallel for us, would be listening.
Melissa Milner 09:13
You mentioned you are a pianist, and you work with vocalists. Do you coach vocalists? Do you give feedback?
Nico de Villiers 09:19
Yes. And it's a bit of a gray area, and it's one that needs a little bit of explanation if somebody is not necessarily in the field. So you get pianists, like myself, who work a lot with singers who don't necessarily sing for a profession. So I'm not a voice teacher in the sense that I would have a client come in and I would talk about the technique of singing and the way of how to create the sound, etc. Because that in itself is a big job, a very focused task.
Usually, voice lessons tend to be an hour long. Within an hour, there's a lot that needs to be fit in from a technical point of view. So then alongside to that, singers tend to have coaches. Because what's the biggest difference between a singer and a violinist is the singer needs to sing text. And it often is, if it's in the western classical tradition, it's often a language which is not their mother tongue.
So therefore, the coach's job is, on the one hand, to listen out for details regarding musicality and style and phrasing and reminding the singer, perhaps, of some technical issues now and then if the coach is established enough and also confident enough that what they're going to say technically is clear and not interfering with anything that the voice teacher would be addressing.
And then also dealing with language and diction, because of course, the moment you put text to music, you are distorting the language. Because suddenly vowels are much longer, often over a number of notes to create a melody. And therefore, there are ways that singers need to learn to deal with a language that it's still understandable to the listener when they are singing.
So there's a lot of detailed work. I always think of it like a big clock with loads of little cogs that need a bit of tweaking here, a bit of oiling there. And all of that work takes place before they step on the concert stage.
Melissa Milner 11:50
That's very detailed work. Do you find that all vocalists are just super open to hearing what you have to say? Or do you get people who get defensive or don't appreciate your coaching?
Nico de Villiers 12:04
Well, it depends. The clients that I'm working with and have worked with, I've built up a working relationship over a long time. And I make it very clear, right from the beginning, that if there's anything that I say that either is not in line with a certain way of working that the teacher and the singer is focusing on, if there's anything not quite in line with that, that they tell me.
Because it's often to do with vocabulary that, in most cases, I think, we mean the same thing, but we say differently. I've had both experiences, on the one hand that the voice teacher might explain a concept in one way. And I would explain it, the same concept, but in a very different way with different language, which then really opened it up. And the singer then understood what the teacher was saying. Or the teacher might have said something, and then I would try to make sense of what the teacher has said in order to clarify it for the singer.
So vocabulary is, I think, very important. And so for me, when I start a relationship with a singer, I always say, if there's anything that is not in line with what your teacher is saying, you have to tell me. And I'll find a different way of saying what I want to say, but that it marries up with what they are taught by their teacher.
The ideal situation, of course, is if you know the teacher's vocabulary. Because then you can remind the singer of things that the teacher would have asked for. Or you can say, well, your teacher will probably or might probably have referred to this specific issue, using this language. I've just used this different language, but it's basically the same thing.
So you're constantly analyzing not just what the singer is doing, but also what you are doing yourself in order to make yourself really clear and succinct. And that's quite funny that I used that word, because I just spoke for a very long time.
Melissa Milner 14:32
No, but you absolutely communicated what I was hoping to hear, which is the importance of, I think, for the students to be open. I think you said, from the beginning, let me know if something's not jiving. Let me know if something doesn't sound right or if something seems unclear. Because a past teacher, like in elementary school, maybe a past teacher called it friendly numbers, and I'm calling it compatible numbers.
Nico de Villiers 15:05
Exactly.
Melissa Milner 15:06
But they're the same thing.
Nico de Villiers 15:08
It's exactly the same principle, yes.
Melissa Milner 15:10
Yeah. So that's exactly what I was looking for, along with, I'm sure, just talking to you now, you have a very calm way of communicating. So I don't think anybody's going to get defensive listening to you say, oh, you should do that slower. I think you have a nice way about you. And I think teachers have to think about how they come off to kids. Their demeanor, I think, makes a big difference.
Nico de Villiers 15:36
Absolutely. And it's all to do with communication. I think I always come back to that. It's what you are presenting to the person you're working with, you know? It's not just communication through words, but it's body language and just the feeling in the room. Something that has actually been quite tricky in certain ways with some of the Conservatoire students that I'm working with now during lockdown, and working over Zoom, that initially, it actually highlighted how much of that emotional connection we actually have taken for granted because we used to be in the same room.
And now suddenly, there's various other things we have to put in place to communicate clearer and still hopefully getting to the same results or sometimes even better results. Because we suddenly have to be much more meticulous in what we are saying and how we're saying it.
Melissa Milner 16:44
All educators listening right now are shaking their heads at that. It's a pretty big shift. It really is.
Nico de Villiers 16:53
Absolutely.
Melissa Milner 16:54
Even how you prepare before getting online with that child or that person that you're coaching. It's like, well, how can I make this time with them the most efficient and still communicate everything I want to communicate. It makes you become very succinct, but then you also need to be able to still have that relationship with that person. It's very difficult.
Nico de Villiers 17:17
Exactly. Just coming back to how you deal with a coaching situation at the beginning, sometimes-- I always think whether they're a student, or whether they're a paying client, I always think of them as a client from the point of view, I've got a product, and they came to me to get that product. Now my product can offer various things.
So at the beginning of a coaching, I would say - unless we've discussed this in email before - but I would always ask, what do you want to get from this session? Because sometimes it is, well, I want to specifically focus on language. Or I just want to get a sense of just singing through the piece, because I've worked in lots of detail up until this point.
I need to get an overview feel, etc. And again, that brings me back to communication. If you just talk openly, and everybody knows, or it becomes clear about what they want in the moment, then the playing field is so much richer.
Melissa Milner 18:25
Especially, I mean, when working with adults, I'm sure. You're able to do that a little bit easier than working with third graders.
Nico de Villiers 18:33
Exactly. With kids, that would be different.
Melissa Milner 18:35
What are you zooming in on right now?
[ZOOMING IN SOUNDBITE]
Nico de Villiers 18:40
I am zooming in on various things. Because as I say, when I finished my PhD, I needed to sort of think outside the box that I've been very comfortable in for quite a while. I'm zooming in on how to not only depend on coaching one to one. It's very much in the starting process now. But I'm putting together some courses that will be discussing specific issues that come up often in coachings.
And - you would appreciate this also as a teacher - that over time, you sometimes think, I'm like a broken record, because I say the same thing to 50 different people. So that's one thing that I'm zooming in on is creating some courses around style, or diction, or interpretation of a song or a group of songs, etc. And then I'm constantly writing.
So I'm preparing a chapter for a book on South African art song, which is part of a series that will be published by the University of Heidelberg in Germany and the University of Cape Town. Because my focus has been, in my career, on German or French art song. And then my PhD, of course, focused on American.
And so there's a good parallel then for me to draw that with South African art song, which has not much written about it actually. There are some articles written in journals, but not really a book chapter or even a book that properly discusses it. So this is a new project for me, and also for research in South Africa, which is very exciting.
Melissa Milner 20:45
Very, very cool. And, of course, you're working on your podcast.
Nico de Villiers 20:49
Yes. So talking about listening, I listened to my students, and they were the ones that inspired me to start a podcast. During lockdown-- so just to backtrack, I teach at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama in London, where I'm a vocal coach, working with both undergraduate and postgraduate students.
But then I also teach two modules. One is for sort of a musicology module for undergraduate students. And then there is a self reflective module for postgrads. And, of course, the case that we were all in lockdown made us think about our lives differently, and where we fit into the world, and where our work fits into our lives and into the world.
And so I had a meeting, virtually, of course, with a group of my students, and they were sort of 50/50. One half were really inspired and actually felt that the lockdown gave them the opportunity to really find inspiration to take more responsibility for their own learning, to create opportunities for themselves to think outside the box. And then the other half were really despondent and felt, well, what worth would a music degree be post-COVID? How am I supposed to create a living for myself if I can't perform, because concert halls and opera houses are closed, etc.?
So then I decided to start a podcast to talk to people who either have perhaps studied something differently in undergraduate, say, for instance, languages or science, and then at postgraduate level, came into music, to do opera. Or the opposite, people who have studied music at undergraduate level, and then got to the end of the course and realized, well, yes, they love music, and they want to continue it. But they don't want to make it their main source of income.
And therefore, I've been talking to some very interesting people who have created some wonderful careers for themselves and maintained their musical career. So it's parallel careers. It's not as a hobby at all, you know? They still get paid for what they do musically. But the focus of the pressure, I suppose, of having to make ends meet through music has been lifted. And as a result, they found, actually, that they perform much better and they are enjoying their work much more. And so my podcast, What Would Mozart Do?, I called it.
Melissa Milner 24:01
It's really good. It's really a great listen, by the way.
Nico de Villiers 24:04
Thank you very much. Yes. So I ask that question in response to some worries that my students had. And I wanted to help them getting some answers. And interestingly enough, I've got some answers myself, which is wonderful.
Melissa Milner 24:25
Very, very cool. I hope everybody will go over to Apple and search What Would Mozart Do? What is your favorite movie, and why?
Nico de Villiers 24:34
My favorite movie? You sent me this question earlier, and I've been racking my brains. And I can't really think of saying anything profound about it. I love the Meryl Streep film Out of Africa. And I wonder whether it is perhaps because I'm from Africa. But also two things that stand out for me of Out of Africa is the amazing landscapes, and also the wonderful score that accompanies it. And it's always, there's just this beautiful music, and I'm a sucker for a love story. So, yeah, it's all put together in one in Out of Africa.
Melissa Milner 25:21
I haven't seen that since it came out. You're inspiring me to go watch that again.
Nico de Villiers 25:26
Oh, you should. You absolutely should. I think you'll enjoy it.
Melissa Milner 25:30
Great. So how can people reach you to learn more about what you do?
Nico de Villiers 25:33
Well, people are more than welcome to contact me through my podcast, What Would Mozart Do? Or people can email me directly at nico.devilliers@gsmd.ac.uk.
Melissa Milner 25:51
And I'll put that info in the show notes on my website.
Nico de Villiers 25:54
Excellent. Thank you very much.
Melissa Milner 25:56
Thank you, it really was very, very much a parallel to teaching.
Nico de Villiers 26:00
Thank you so much for asking me.
Melissa Milner 26:02
If you enjoyed this episode, and have not done so already, please hit the subscribe button for The Teacher As... podcast so you can get future episodes. I would love for you to leave a review and a rating, as well, if you have time. For my blog, transcripts of this episode and links to any resources mentioned, visit my website at www.theteacheras.com. You can reach me on Twitter and Instagram @melissabmilner. And I hope you check out The Teacher As... Facebook page for episode updates.
I am sending a special thanks to Linda and Lester Fleishman, my mom and dad, for being so supportive. They are the voices you hear in the Zooming In soundbite. And my dad composed and performed the background music you are listening to right now. My intro music was "Upbeat Party" by Scott Holmes.
So what are you zooming in on? I would love to hear from you. My hope is that we all share what we are doing in the classroom in order to teach, remind, affirm and inspire each other. Thanks for listening. And that's a wrap!