Zooming In on Math Student Vital Actions with Jen Hawkins

Make sure to check out Jen Hawkins’ guest blogpost about Student Vital Actions.

Past Episode with Jen Hawkins:

Ep. 85 Math Teacher Moves with Jen Hawkins

Resources mentioned in this episode:

SERP Institute work on Student Vital Actions and Supporting Teacher moves

Building Thinking Classrooms by Peter Liljedahl 

The 5 Practices for Orchestrating Productive Mathematical Discourse 

Illustrative Math - open educational resource math curriculum

Illustrative Mathematics Blog - more about IM and current math pedagogy

How to reach Jen Hawkins:

Email: hawkinsjen68@gmail.com

Transcript:

Melissa Milner 0:09

Welcome to The Teacher As... Podcast. I'm your host Melissa Milner, a teacher who is painfully curious and very easily inspired. This podcast is ever changing. And I hope with each season, you find episodes that speak to you in your work as an educator. This is the fifth season of The Teacher As, and it's exciting to see the growth in how many educators are listening. Episodes are released every other week. If you enjoy The Teacher As... please rate it on Apple podcasts and leave a review. It helps the podcast reach more educators. Thanks for listening.

Jen Hawkins 0:41

My name is Jen Hawkins and I'm here with Melissa today to talk about student vital actions. I've worked with Melissa before in a previous podcast about teacher moves, and then sort of the partner to that is what are the student vital actions? What are the teachers moving the kids towards? I'm an independent consultant and I also work with Flynn education, and the Math ,eadership program at Mount Holyoke College. And I work with Illustrative Mathematics as well.

Melissa Milner 1:09

Yes, you do. That's how I met you with a PD from my district. So we're talking... when you're talking student vital actions we're talking specifically about in the math classroom.

Jen Hawkins 1:21

Yep. Although, although much of this is applicable in any class, I mean, because it's about, it's about students being engaged and thinkers. And that's vitally important because you know, the word vital means to be full of energy, and we want our students to be engaged and full of energy. And the word vital means essential and absolutely necessary. And if students are not engaged thinkers in our classroom then... then we are failing.

Melissa Milner 1:47

Absolutely. Let's get started. Do we have like a list of them? Or how do we do this?

Jen Hawkins 1:52

Well, I do have a list but it's not my list. I'm... the thinking behind this that I'm that I'm absorbing and using and building on is from a partnership called the Strategic Education Research Partnership, which is abbreviated as SERP. SERP was started by, I believe it was Phil Darrow, he was one of the writers of the Common Core. And it was a research partnership to create new tools for schools, and it's particularly connected to mathematics. And so through my work with Illustrative Mathematics, I found a link to the ideas that the SERP Institute has put forward about student vital actions. And there are seven of them.

Melissa Milner 2:35

Let's talk about it. Is it ranked or they're all equally as important.

Jen Hawkins 2:39

They're all equally as important, I will tell you my favorites, but there are seven of them. The first one is about having all students participate. The second is about students saying a second sentence. The third is about students being able to talk about one another's thinking. The fourth one is about students being able to revise their thinking. The fifth and sixth vital actions are about students using precise mathematical language, and about ELL students using whatever language they can to convey their ideas and giving them a support in moving towards academic language. And then the seventh, and my favorite student vital action is about perseverance, and productive struggle. But I do have a few favorites. But number seven is my favorite.

Melissa Milner 3:27

I think we'll end with that one.

Jen Hawkins 3:29

Okay, sure. That sounds good.

Melissa Milner 3:30

Yeah, so maybe just start with number one. And tell us a little bit more about it, what it looks like in the classroom.

Jen Hawkins 3:36

Sure. So what what's interesting about this is that you notice how they were all about what students are doing. So this is about looking at students. And what's interesting about the student vital actions is that if an administrator walked into a classroom, an administrator could be looking at what the students are doing, and not what the teachers are doing, and find out if the students are being positioned as thinkers in the classroom. And so most of these things are observable things that can help administrators and fellow teachers that may be observing a peer, you know, provide feedback about whether the students are positioned as capable thinkers. So you know, all students participate, you know, like if we walk into a classroom, and we see one student just continually raising their hand and answering all the questions, what does that tell us about the rest of the kids in the classroom? How are they feeling when they see that one kid always with their hand up? A lot of the times they may feel like they're not making valuable contributions to the class. And then there can kind of be a downward spiral where they start to think, well, maybe I don't have valuable contributions, or maybe my ideas aren't any good. So it's really an equity issue, because the people that are talking in class are learning the most in class. And so if only a few students talk, if a teacher doesn't have strategies and moves that provide opportunities for everybody to participate, then the learning opportunities are not equivalent. And the quiet students may lose confidence. So, you know, you want to walk into a room and see a classroom where all students participate. And if you're a teacher, you want to ask yourself as a reflection after a class, who did I call on? How often did I call on so and so whose ideas were brought forward? Was there any sort of perhaps unintended bias in who I gave attention to and whose voices seemed important? And so teachers want to be cognizant of that?

Melissa Milner 5:27

Yes. And in the episode that we did together about teacher moves, you talk about that in depth, and I'm going to link that episode in this episode page. So people can, you know, listen to this, and then go listen to the teacher moves one, because they are very much intertwined.

Jen Hawkins 5:45

Very much hand in hand. Oh, thanks, Melissa. That's great. Well, what I can also mention is that in the last podcast, and I'm sure with this one will link the resources that the SERP Institute provides. And they provide with every single one of these student vital actions, a list of six or seven different specific teacher moves to help you get these things to happen in your classroom more. So it's something that I love to work with teachers about and you know, in fact, next Friday, I'll be working with a school in Western Mass about this topic.

Melissa Milner 6:16

It's important.

Jen Hawkins 6:17

Yeah. So I'll talk about the second one. And it's one that I kind of misunderstood for a while. But it's about getting students to say a second sentence. And so my initial thinking about this was about oh, well, we want kids to always, always say more than just an answer, we want them to say, the answer is 12 because I know that I'm going to be using subtraction for this problem, and you know, whatever, whatever, whatever. But you know, I thought it was always about we want students to say some more, because an answer is not enough. But it's also about getting students to provide an answer with explanation that will make sense to their classmates. And so you have a community that is learning together, when students have to not necessarily defend but elaborate on their thinking, so that their classmates can understand it.

Melissa Milner 7:15

And learn.

Jen Hawkins 7:16

Right, and so the student who has to arrange their, their thinking in a way that's understandable to other people, is processing and thinking more deeply. And the other students are learning from it, as well as as well as the teacher. And so we want students to say more than 12, we want them to say, why, how...

Melissa Milner 7:38

Yeah.

Jen Hawkins 7:39

Etc.

Melissa Milner 7:39

Do we want to get to the, to the point where we're not having to prompt for that same war?

Jen Hawkins 7:44

Sure.

Melissa Milner 7:45

Explain, like, eventually, we hope that it just becomes a routine for them, and they know to do it?

Jen Hawkins 7:50

Right. But But at first, you might have to have, you know, some sort of teacher moves that are the things you say, to get them to say something else, like, you know, I don't know why, why do you think that is? Or do you think that's always true? Those kinds of things, but you want to, you want to be able to ask a student to say more, or I can imagine that if if I was in the classroom full time I might have, I might put up a peace sign, which is like two fingers. And that might just be like a signal to the kids. Okay, you're gonna say a little bit more, you know, you've given me one, one great thing, and I put up a second finger saying, now give me something else with it. And maybe that might be a silent signal to help kids know you gotta say a little bit more in my class.

Melissa Milner 8:30

I like the nonverbal like, you're just with the fingers up. That's awesome.

Jen Hawkins 8:34

Yeah. And we're all willing to put up a peace sign peace signs a good message?

Melissa Milner 8:38

Absolutely. I again, I think this was discussed in that other episode. And I remember when we were doing the math lab, and I think I had to teach the part where it's that warm up. And they're all doing the...

Jen Hawkins 8:57

The thumbs up to their chest. Yeah.

Melissa Milner 8:58

The like silent thumbs up.

Jen Hawkins 9:00

Yeah.

Melissa Milner 9:00

And so one student answered. And then I said, Oh, can you tell me how you got how you figure that out? And they started to tell it and then they, while they're telling it, they realized they got it wrong? Ah, they like in that telling they were able to backtrack and go, actually, it's this because that that the, and all the students were like, Yes, that's what it was. Yes, like a great moment. It was so cool.

Jen Hawkins 9:24

And so you had a great teacher move that prompted that moment. And we see how by a student having to talk about their thinking, they might just realize that there was a change they want to make and you look, you'll just jump us right now to number four. And then we'll come back to number three, because number four is about revising your thinking and seeing students revise their thinking and so when students are learning from their mistakes and when others are learning from the community that might make mistakes and know that they get supported in that community. That's that's super.

Melissa Milner 9:56

Yeah, that whole growth mindset too.

Jen Hawkins 9:59

It makes students analytical. It makes them critical thinkers and deeper thinkers as well. So you want to be willing, you want to be willing to revise your thinking either make it better, or change it entirely if you realize it's wrong.

Melissa Milner 10:11

Sometimes we have a parking lot where the kids put post-its up, you know, what did I learn? I'm wondering, maybe there should be a revision parking lot when you change your thinking about something in math class, do a post it. Oh, I thought it was this, but then I realized it was that like, I just came up with it. Because then that's, you know, they might have done it when they were working with a partner. And I might not even know that they've done this wonderful revision of their thinking. But if they share it on a post it, then I'll you know, I will know and everybody else can see it.

Jen Hawkins 10:39

Right? And anytime a teacher recognizes things with some kind of a display in the classroom, kids respond to it. Absolutely,

Melissa Milner 10:47

Definitely. Alright, so now back to three.

Jen Hawkins 10:49

Number three. Number three was being able to talk about each other's thinking. So when students are able to talk about each other's thinking, it means that they're listening to each other. It means that they are processing what students say. And it develops their proficiency and reasoning, as well, when they can consider what someone else is saying and make sense of it.

Melissa Milner 11:13

So what does that look like in the classroom? Is it when they turn and talk, and then this student has to test or retell what their partner...?

Jen Hawkins 11:25

It could be that or it could be, you know, if a student is starting to explain something, and then it's sort of drifting because they can't finish is intense, they say, can anybody pick this up, and take it all, all the way through, and that promotes listening for when when you're going to pick up that that loose ball and and carry it over the end line. So you want to be able to talk about each other's thinking, and be able to critique it and elaborate on it as appropriate.

Melissa Milner 11:50

I also find my kids, when we do the warm up every day, I hear students saying, mine is sort of... my ideas sort of like blah blahs, but I just did it this way instead, you know, but they're they're they're paying attention. And they're saying, you know, minds like hers, or minds like what they did, but I just did it this way, you know?

Jen Hawkins 12:10

Yeah. So they're, they're making connections, they're building patterns in their mind and patterns are what lead to great mathematical conclusions.

Melissa Milner 12:18

Yeah, I love that patterns are so important.

Jen Hawkins 12:21

They are. And so five and six, I do usually consider together because they're both about language. But one is about academic language. And one is about ELL students being able to express their ideas in the way that is comfortable for them. And you'll see teacher moves here around sentence starters, or around, you know, collecting the words that students are using, you know, like, say, like in second or third grade, when we talk about where two edges of a shape meet, you know, we can call that a vertex, but we could call it a point. Or we could call it a dot. And so you want it you want to let kids call it what they want to call it. But we also want to use the math language, in context appropriately, so that kids can be sort of on a continuum of moving from the words that they're familiar with, toward that math word. Like if we insist that they must say vertex, I mean, that's not necessarily very natural for an eight or nine year old at all. If they say, Oh, that.in the corner and I go, Oh, yeah, this right here. And I point when I go, Oh, I call that a vertex. You know, that way, they start to see the word in context. And, and one thing that changed has changed in math education, is that research shows that introducing vocabulary in isolation is not the best way to turn kids onto math words, and you want to have context around it the whole time.

Melissa Milner 13:45

So you just spoke a lot about teacher moves related to this, what does it look like when the students are doing this in the classroom?

Jen Hawkins 13:52

Remember how earlier I talked about how an observer could come into a room and could see what's happening and know if students are positioned as mathematical thinkers. And so if we're in a room and we hear kids, you know, using precise language, if we hear kids helping each other with words that are mathematically precise, or we see a word wall that has been growing, as a unit has moved on, when we see a teacher except language that perhaps is not mathematically precise, but is clear in its meaning from an ELL student then these are things that we see in the classroom that tell us that language is being embraced appropriately.

Melissa Milner 14:34

And I mean a word wall you know, sometimes I just for the whatever we're doing that day I put up I have to find room and we don't have a lot of wall space, unfortunately, but I have to find a way to be able to display words for the unit not just what we're working on that like I got to get better at that and find a spot for that.

Melissa Milner 14:55

Yeah, I mean, that is that is a teachers' struggle. And also I encourage teachers to sit in the back of the room and make sure you can read them from there. Because sometimes they're not big enough to read from the back of the room. And if kids are working groups all around the the carpet perimeter they are, they might be like, Oh, what's that word? Oh, I can't even see it. And they might not get up and go look at it. So I really suggest they be big and bold.

Melissa Milner 15:21

I gotta figure that out. Yeah, it's like, Okay, another thing on my list that I need to make sure I'm doing better.

Jen Hawkins 15:26

Yeah. Well, that's kind of what's fun about teaching is that it's it's always a challenge. And it's interesting, and we're always learning.

Melissa Milner 15:34

Absolutely. Yeah, that was five and six, right?

Jen Hawkins 15:37

Yes. Oh, so now we get to number seven, which is my favorite?

Melissa Milner 15:41

Number seven, the favorite.

Jen Hawkins 15:41

Yes, yes. Lucky. Number seven. You see students persevering through difficulty. And this is something I've been thinking about so much. The last couple of years. Things I've collected are like some of the things about how showing what you already know, is not learning.

Melissa Milner 15:55

Yep.

Jen Hawkins 15:55

And we talked about that last time, because I was really nervous to do the podcast. And I was like, Well, I'm learning something. It's not easy. And if it's new, it's supposed to be hard.

Melissa Milner 16:06

Yeah.

Jen Hawkins 16:06

So we want to be modeling perseverance. We want to see kids not giving up when they get to the hard stuff. We want to see teachers say statements or provide guidance, or ask questions that make kids think harder and not give up. Because when kids push through, they feel so confident when they succeed, and they're rewarded. And they want to do more. And so as much as we care about our students, we can't coddle them. We have to let them wrestle with stuff. And if you're doing three or four examples of anything, before they ever work on their own, then they don't have the perseverance to do anything on their own. And so I think that in general, the whole student vital actions, you know, thing is about creating kids that can think, that are capable, and that are not passive.

Melissa Milner 16:59

Absolutely. And, again, we talked about this in the last episode, how hard it is when you know, you've got five or six kids that aren't going to know what to do. And just to send them off, knowing that they are going to fail...

Jen Hawkins 17:16

Have a difficulty. Well, no, we don't we don't know they're going to fail. Nope, nope, we don't want to think that. We can say that they're gonna have a hard time.

Melissa Milner 17:22

Yeah.

Jen Hawkins 17:23

You can have a hard time. But if you use some intentional partnering, and if you've created a community where they know it's okay to try stuff, yep. And it's okay to make mistakes. Even when kids solve a problem, and it's wrong. There is something that they've done that's right.

Melissa Milner 17:40

That's...yes, I do a lot... I'll do my favorite mistake. I'll pull that up. And but I also think just walking around, at the beginning of the year, it was different. But now I'm like, go...

Jen Hawkins 17:52

So yeah, you you see that now they're getting used to it. Because you know, you've you've changed in your school into a problem based curriculum where kids are presented with something that's hard. But even even if you have them just go, as you said, and if they go in different directions with their partner, and say only one partnership succeeds and the other don't, you can still pull things from the ones that don't get to the finish line, and use them in your synthesis of the lesson. And they can feel good about how far they got. And then sometimes, as they're hearing themselves explained, they might say, oh, wait a second. Exactly, you know, and that happens. And then we just get so excited about it, that they feel positive and encouraged and want to try again the next time.

Melissa Milner 18:36

It's so true. And it's very hard to just, you want to like coddle them? I mean, in a way, you know, but no, I mean, you have to, they're not going to learn if you're doing everything step by step with them.

Jen Hawkins 18:51

Right. And so like this is probably I think, my third year, just going into schools that I've never been into before. Teaching lessons I may or may not have taught before, and I'm talking about grades K through 12 at this point, and having teachers say, before we do the lesson, they can't do it. And having us having me say we're going to try. And I don't think it's just luck, that every single time there has always been at least one student who had the thing. And we don't just call on that student because they had the thing. But we we intentionally pair that student with other students so that they learn from each other. Or if we had that student share a piece of their thinking, and then we have others build on it. But whatever it is, I've never seen a problem based learning lesson fail. I mean, I'll knock on wood. I'm doing one tomorrow in a grade in a school. I've never been to maybe tomorrow is going to be the fail. But I don't think so kids really come through.

Melissa Milner 19:51

Yeah, but in saying that. You are talking about the power of the synthesis. That's what you're really talking about.

Jen Hawkins 19:59

Yes, but also the faith that we need to have in our students.

Melissa Milner 20:04

Of course.

Jen Hawkins 20:05

That they that they can do it and that they don't need me to tell them, but with the right guidance and with, you know, strong curricula, that give us the resources to give kids the experiences where they do think, amazing things can happen.

Melissa Milner 20:20

What I love with illustrative math, as far as student moves, is that the warm ups in particular are very, what is it low, high ceiling, low...

Jen Hawkins 20:32

High ceiling, low floor.

Melissa Milner 20:33

So any any student like notice and wonder, well, they can notice and wonder, whatever they notice and wonder it doesn't have to be. And just that alone, helps with participation right at the beginning of the lesson.

Jen Hawkins 20:47

Right. And when you feel good at the beginning of the lesson, you're encouraged to continue and persevere through the whole thing.

Melissa Milner 20:53

So I love that. And with the vital actions, I think teacher moves and the vital actions, you know, in order to get those vital actions, the teacher moves have to be in place. So if you if you're listening to this, really make sure you go listen to the teacher moves so that you can get your students to be doing these vital actions.

Jen Hawkins 21:12

Right. And and and check out you know, I have to do as you know, Google SERP Institute or but we will provide links with this recording.

Melissa Milner 21:20

And what is SERPs stands for?

Jen Hawkins 21:21

It stands for strategic education research partnership.

Melissa Milner 21:25

Excellent. Excellent.

Jen Hawkins 21:26

Yeah. So so great, great resources. They're a great resource for administrators, and for teachers as well.

Melissa Milner 21:32

Is there anything else you want to say about vital actions? Before I asked you the last question.

Jen Hawkins 21:36

When I'm often going into the classrooms is I have no preconceived notions about any of the kids. I am, I am monitoring as I walk around, I'm listening to their turn and talks, I'm looking at their papers, and I am just, you know, pulling what I think is the best stuff to use when we wrap up. And I can't tell you how many times after that lesson, where I taught without any preconceived notions, teachers will say, "Wow, I never knew so and so could do blah, blah, blah." Or I was surprised. Or somebody would say do you know, who just was amazing in class that has never said anything. And because I don't have any preconceived notions, things happen differently. And so that really tells us a lot.

Melissa Milner 22:19

I think SERP should add that as a teacher move, start every math lesson with a blank slate on all kids.

Jen Hawkins 22:27

I wish we could do I wish that it would. And we have to stop referring to kids as high and low because those are preconceived notions.

Melissa Milner 22:35

It's so true. It's a kind of a whole paradigm shift.

Jen Hawkins 22:38

Yeah, it's it's, it's not helpful.

Melissa Milner 22:40

Last question is what are you professionally zooming in on right now?

Jen Hawkins 22:48

Oh, the zoom in moment. I guess one of the things that I'm thinking about is an idea from Building Thinking Classrooms, which is a really another cool thing that you might have gotten into before Melissa.

Melissa Milner 23:02

Yeah, Ann Elise Record talks about it a lot.

Jen Hawkins 23:05

And it's about how students ask us proximity questions just because we're walking by. And they ask us questions, as soon as things get hard, because they want us to think for them. And so I really liked this idea that I got from Building Thinking Classrooms about how when they ask us those questions that are not going to help their brains grow whatsoever, that I have a list, and it's a teacher actually laminated it for me of what to say, and then smile and walk away. And so and but you want to prep kids, especially the younger kids to say, there's certain kinds of questions that I'm not going to answer. And sometimes when you asked me a question, that means that you want to stop struggling, I'm going to be saying one of these things to you, and I'm gonna smile and walk away. And it's not because I'm being tough on you. It's because I care about you. And I know that you can keep thinking and get there.

Melissa Milner 24:00

Yes. Can you send that to me so I can put it on the episode page?

Jen Hawkins 24:03

Absolutely. And I'll just give you a couple examples. One just might be saying, Are you sure? And then walking away? Or if they said the answer, seven I know it is, then you could just say, Are you sure? And walk away? Or they could say it's impossible, this? This can't ever work? Are you sure? And then walk away. And then you could also say something very simple. Like, why do you think that is? Or does that make sense? And then smile and walk away. But not not easily done. But But and you just want to make sure you create the culture first that the kids know why you're doing it. And that's what's so important at the beginning of the year is to build a culture about your expectations, around language around perseverance, and maybe discouraging hand raising and just going to quiet signals, stuff like that.

Melissa Milner 24:53

Fantastic. You're always amazing. I wonder whether we should do another episode. Just about just about Math Lab and what math lab is.

Jen Hawkins 25:01

Well, we could do that some time. Sure.

Melissa Milner 25:03

I'll give you a rest though.

Jen Hawkins 25:05

Thanks, Melissa. You're so fun to work with.

Melissa Milner 25:07

Thank you so much.

Melissa Milner 25:08

For my blog, transcripts of this episode, and links to any resources mentioned, visit my website at www.theteacheras.com. You can reach me on Twitter and Instagram @melissabmilner and I hope you check out The Teacher As... Facebook page for episode updates. Thanks for listening. And that's a wrap.