Zooming In Episode: The Teacher As Collaborator with Jack Mangan
How you can reach Jack:
amievil-graphicnovel.com
Am I Evil? Graphic Novel Facebook page
Friend Jack on Facebook by searching Jack Mangan
metalasylum.net Metal Hall of Fame, which is
metalhalloffame.org
jackmangan.com
Make sure to check out Jack’s guest blog!
Transcript:
(transcription by kayla.r.fainer@gmail.com)
Melissa Milner 0:09
Hi, this is Melissa Milner. Welcome to The Teacher As... podcast. The goal of this weekly podcast is to help you explore your passions and learn from others in education and beyond to better your teaching. The Teacher As... will highlight uncommon parallels to teaching, as well as share practical ideas for the classroom.
So this is a Zooming In episode, where I zoom in on something that I'm interested in right now. In this Zooming In episode, I interviewed Jack Mangan. Jack was a successful podcaster for years, is a journalist, and now is also collaborating to create a graphic novel based on a heavy metal song.
As the interview went on, I realized that this was not just about creative writing for graphic novels and comic books. The theme that emerged was the power of creative collaboration. Make sure to check out Jack's guest blog post on my website about just this topic: collaboration. Enjoy my interview with Jack Mangan. Welcome, Jack. Thanks for taking the time out to talk to me.
Jack Mangan 1:14
Thanks so much for having me on. It's really exciting.
Melissa Milner 1:16
So what do you want The Teacher As... listeners to know about you?
Jack Mangan 1:19
That's a loaded question. I guess we'll start with for the year 2020, my primary focus has been on-- I'm working with a team to create a comic book based on kind of a classic hard rock heavy metal song called "Am I Evil?". The huge band, Metallica, made it really famous. But it was a cover of a band called Diamond Head who did the original version, and it's really an incredible song. And for the snobs out there among us, the whole opening section is based on Gustav Holst's "Mars, The Bringer of War". But of course, it's still a fun, rocking, hard rocking heavy metal song.
And the story in the song, it actually begins with the lines, "My mother was a witch; she was burned alive." So it's about his revenge or narrator's revenge on the people who burned his mother for being a witch. It's a fun song, and I always thought there was a great story in there.
Actually, I'm a journalist. I also write for a website called metalasylum.net. I'm also involved with the Metal Hall of Fame. So I spoke with the original songwriters and got their permission to create something. And we talked about it, and we decided that comic graphic novel format was probably the best way to retell that story. But yeah, like I said, I've been around writing for a long time. I've been around podcasting for a long time.
Melissa Milner 2:36
Yeah. Can you tell us more about that, more about your writing experience and podcasting experience?
Jack Mangan 2:41
Sure, I would love to. And in fact, they kind of coalesced. Because in the year 2005, I was just breaking into the writing world, and I had a couple of small publication successes. And I learned about the same-- I became part of this group of people who were creating podcast fiction. And 2005, that's a long time ago. Podcasts were still a very new thing.
So I mean, this is a new thing that was being done. And I can make no claims of being the first, but I was among the first wave. There are a couple people. Tee Morris is one, Scott Sigler is another. Mur Lafferty is another one. And the three of them have become really big name writers. Mur Lafferty wrote an official Star Wars novel.
Melissa Milner 3:27
Wow.
Jack Mangan 3:28
You know, these were great people to call peers and friends. And so I was part of that first wave of podcast novelists. I wrote my novel. My novel is called Spherical Tomi. It was a science fiction novel, and it was published as a print book and also in podcast form, basically audio fiction.
So that's an exciting thing from my past that I've been a part of, and it's been exciting to see my friends and peers hit the stratosphere. I took a sideline for a bit to just focus on offline stuff, family stuff, and that kind of stuff. But it's as I said, it's been wonderful watching these people hit the stratosphere in the writing world, hit bestseller lists, and sign big deals. So that's a little bit of my past.
Melissa Milner 4:15
Yeah, so it seems like you have a passion for metal music. You did some journalism work there?
Jack Mangan 4:21
I do, yeah. I worked-- now this is also gonna reveal my age. My college job was working at a Sam Goody record store.
Melissa Milner 4:31
Oh, yeah.
Jack Mangan 4:34
So music is the passion. But yeah, heavy metal is what I grew up with. And it's something I've never really dropped. I've certainly gotten into, basically, you name the music form. I'd love to talk to you about Carmen. It's my favorite opera.
But I also really-- heavy metal has always been what I grew up with, and I still love it. I still really appreciate the music, and there's so many amazing artists there. And so yeah, metalasylum.net is primarily what I've been writing for.
But I'm also involved with Metal Hall of Fame, which is kind of a big and prestigious organization. That's an honor. And yeah, I do basically music reviews, and I do interviews with large scale artists and people in that world. And when there are concerts, I've done concert photography and concert writing. That's been fun, too.
Melissa Milner 5:27
Renaissance man.
Jack Mangan 5:30
Yeah, I keep busy, for sure.
Melissa Milner 5:31
That's great. That's great, being able to take that passion for the music and use it in your writing. And obviously, this is a show for teachers. And it's so important to help students find their passions, because then the writing and the work becomes easy.
Because it's within something that they're really passionate about. So project-based learning and things like that is really helping kids find out what they're really interested in. So it sounds like you've been doing that your whole life.
Jack Mangan 6:01
Thank you. Yeah, there's a Kurt Vonnegut quote that I love, and I'm not gonna say it word for word. So Vonnegut fans, please forgive me. But basically, a teacher asked him to send a letter to his students. And he basically told the students, don't have the attitude that I'm not good enough or I wrote something, and it's bad. So just write anything.
And I think he assigned to the kids, he said, here's my assignment to you is write a poem about how funny your teacher looks. Which I think is great advice, because a lot of us, we get started and our early stuff is not good. And that's a fact of life. No one sits down to write their first thing and have it be a masterpiece.
So I think that's an important thing is to just love what you're doing. Do it for the love of it. Don't do it dreaming of big bucks. Just do it for the love of it.
Melissa Milner 6:47
Right. When you're doing the journalism writing and then you shift to this creative storytelling, do you use some of your storytelling in your journalistic writing? Do you find that it helps you?
Jack Mangan 7:00
Yeah, that's a good question. And a lot of the same muscles are used, because as a writer, you're always searching for the right word and trying to resist going to Thesaurus.com. But I do try to use the same muscles, yes, for journalism. I mean, obviously, I'm not making things up out of thin air for journalism.
So obviously you're beholden to the truth much more in your journalism. And also, no matter what I'm writing about, even if I have an unfavorable view of what I'm writing about, I want to be fair to the subject. Because fiction, your characters are your own, and you can be as unfair to them as you like.
Melissa Milner 7:43
It's true. So do you see any parallels to the work you do and what teachers do?
Jack Mangan 7:50
I think there are certainly some. I have actually had-- and I'm a father, so I've also seen teachers whose writing skills are not the best. But I have some friends who have been teachers, and I have tremendous respect for them. And one of my friends, one of my good friends has talked about his lesson plans for the year and his excitement for it.
And that, to me, seems familiar to a writing project. Because you have to really think forward, it's a little bit of a chess game. You have to see a lot of moves ahead. And so the way that I think the best teachers do their plans for the year, and the way they have to be creative, I think that's probably the best parallel that I can point to. Of course, there are others, but that's probably the number one that I would point to.
Melissa Milner 8:38
Yeah, that makes sense. I think the value in the work you do related to teachers is what the teachers are expecting the kids to do, they should also be willing to do. So if I'm going to be telling kids that they're going to be writing narrative stories, I better be doing it, too, and then sharing it.
And sharing, oh my gosh, I can't believe I have to read this to you. This is really bad, guys. I know it's bad. I want you to help me with it. But if the teacher isn't doing the writing along with the kids, I don't I don't think they learn as much.
Jack Mangan 9:16
Well, again, as a parent, and of course, I remember being in school and in college and in high school, and yeah, that lends a lot of credibility. A lot of kids are feeling that it's us against them in regards to the classroom and the teachers. But that's a great way to kind of counteract that feeling.
Melissa Milner 9:33
Yeah. And also, it's very hard for a teacher to model working on your work. And it's never done, and it's much more powerful to see the teacher saying, oh, I thought that was my last revision. But you know what? I think I need to change this, and this, and this. And you can't model it if you're not doing it yourself, I guess, is what I'm saying.
Jack Mangan 9:54
Yeah, I completely believe that. That makes a lot of sense, for sure.
Melissa Milner 9:58
Yeah. So in all the work you've done, what's your proudest moment?
Jack Mangan 10:02
Well, I'll try to keep it concise. There have been a lot of great moments. Some of the things that come to mind are-- maybe this is a little bit of a superficial thing. So I'll get the superficial one out of the way, and then I'll get ones with actual-- when I lose everyone. As I said, my book Spherical Tomi was among that first wave of podcast novels and podcast fiction. And there was actually a dedicated site called podiobooks.com. It's been converted now to scribble.com. But my book actually debuted at number one on that site, which was really a proud thing.
Melissa Milner 10:39
Wow.
Jack Mangan 10:40
So that was kind of a cool thing. But like I said, that's a little bit superficial. I guess I was really most proud of the responses that I got from that. And aside from the writing, I did run my own podcast for just shy of 10 years and built up the community around that of great people. I [faded?] the podcast, ended around 2014. But that group of people are still in touch. We still have been doing yearly meetups of the listeners around the podcast.
So that really makes me proud to see those connections and these people who have become friends completely independent of me. They met through my podcast, and they're friends. I've seen romantic relationships formed through people who were connected just through listening to my podcast, so that's something.
Melissa Milner 11:26
Wow.
Jack Mangan 11:28
Yeah. I'm very proud of that, too. I think that's been a great thing. But yeah, as far as just personal achievements, as I say, I'm proud of-- there was a podcast I was a part of when I left that some of the listeners basically recorded and put together a farewell to me. And that was really touching. It was really a nice thing. I did move across the country, so I couldn't be on it anymore. But it was a really wonderful thing.
But as far as just personal achievements, I'd say it was great to get that first book published. And I've been invited to do-- some friends who have their own cinematic universes, I should say, not literally cinematic, but their own universes, have asked me to contribute some stories. And I'm very proud to have been invited, and I'm proud of the work I did with them.
The two I'll name very quickly is The Ministry of Peculiar Occurrences by Tee Morris and Pip Ballantine. And it's a wonderful series of books. And they asked me to participate in their world, and I contributed two short stories to their-- well, it's a steampunk setting, but it's about these two investigators. And I was able to contribute to their world, and I even created some things in my story that they loved so much that they went on and used in some of the later novels. So that was really something.
Melissa Milner 12:46
Great, wow.
Jack Mangan 12:47
And then the other one I'm very proud of was an author named P.G. Holyfield, who unfortunately is no longer with us, but he also invited a lot of us to collaborate in his world. And I was very proud of the story I wrote for his world, as well, which came out.
And after he passed on, friends of his put out a compilation of these stories and other other essays of his, and writings about him, and I was very proud to be included in that, as well. So that's the tip of the iceberg. But again, I'll stop there, because I think that's pretty good.
Melissa Milner 13:19
Yeah. From what you said, I've got a few more questions in my mind. The first one is, it sounds like throughout your work through the past years, there's been a lot of collaboration. And when you're collaborating, you have to fit into what they-- it sounds like what you were just saying is, they already had the structure, and you had to fit your writing into that structure, right?
Jack Mangan 13:44
Right. I guess I would say, for people who aren't familiar with those properties, imagine if you were invited to write for Star Trek. You couldn't just have wizards, and dragons, and that kind of thing. You'd have to make sure that it fits in with everything. And also, I think in those cases, and actually this ties in nicely to “Am I Evil?”, because this is another world where I didn't create the story. It was created by these songwriters many years ago.
So I want to make sure that it fits with the narrative and that they're happy with the vision and the world of it. I'm not just gonna say, hey, I'm just gonna throw a werewolf in out of nowhere. And they'd say, wait a minute, we never had that thought. So that's a big part of it.
Melissa Milner 14:27
Right, and who your audience is and what they're expecting, sticking with the genre and the tropes that are already set up.
Jack Mangan 14:38
Right. That's an excellent point, too.
Melissa Milner 14:40
Have you done any writing where - well, probably your review writing - where it's all you? You don't have to fit into any genre, you can decide the tropes or whatever. You can decide the story. Have you done that kind of writing?
Jack Mangan 14:51
Yes. Again, as a creative writer over the years, we've talked a little bit about science fiction, heavy metal. My favorite prose writer, one of my favorite novelists of all time, is John Steinbeck, who obviously-- I just think he's one of those people who can write a paragraph, and I'm glued to the page. And so I've mainly been tied to speculative fiction, but I've certainly done a fair bit of that in my own independent creative writing where I can set the rules and change the rules as I need to, as I need them for the world.
Melissa Milner 15:30
Yeah, it's fascinating. I think about, again, tying it to the classroom, there are different reasons to be writing different audiences. Who's going to be reading this? Who's your target audience? And how do you need to-- are you entertaining? Well, then great, you can go crazy with a fiction story and understanding that the idea of writing is to be heard, and tell stories, or persuade, or inform. And there's rules that sort of go with it, but then you can break the rules.
Jack Mangan 16:00
Right. But I think one of the classic rules, I guess, for lack of a better term is that you really need to know the rules before you can break them. Same with musicians, you really need to know how to play before you start improvising or making noise. You need to know.
Melissa Milner 16:15
Exactly. Yeah, well said. So, I know you're zooming in on your new project. Do you want to tell us more about it?
Jack Mangan 16:24
Sure. As I said, it's based on the classic Diamond Head and heavy metal Metallica song called “Am I Evil?”. And it is a story of a young man who has this horrible thing happen and gets revenge. There's some fun with it, and as I've spoken with my team about, there's some fun. It's a fun hack and slash story, but there's also some great stuff in there. The chorus of the song, you know? The name of the song is “Am I Evil?”.
So it's wonderful. I think there's something in there. Of course, in the song, he answers right away with, "Yes, I am." That kind of takes the ambiguity out of it, but there's still some great reflective moments there. So I think we're definitely going to touch on that. But as well, it's also going to be, again, knowing your audience and knowing what, me, in that audience, if I'm going to read this, as an audience, I want to see the hack and slash stuff. For this story, that's what I want.
But I also like that we can go deeper with it. We can get into the introspection on the nature of evil and the nature of evil in man and humankind. But so, as I said, we're targeting to have the actual comic out in early 2021. On September 9th, 2020, we're launching an Indiegogo campaign, which is basically a crowdfunding campaign.
What's nice about Indiegogo is that regardless of the amount that we raise, we will be able to create something. And that something is really going to go to paying the artists and paying production costs if we're able to do a print version of the comic. And we're going to create that. And so we will self publish.
We're not averse to a major publisher taking interest and picking us up. That's not initially in our view. Our view is just to create something great that's reverent and respectful. And I want Metallica-- I want everyone to enjoy it. I want people who have even never heard a single note of Metallica. But I mainly, of course, want Brian Tatler and Sean Harris of Diamond Head, who wrote the original song, to read this and say, you got it, that's wonderful.
Melissa Milner 18:19
That would be awesome.
Jack Mangan 18:21
Right? And they're on board. They've given their blessing. We're not just doing this out of the blue.
Melissa Milner 18:25
That's great.
Jack Mangan 18:26
But I will talk just very briefly about our team. We have an amazing team of artists. One of my collaborators is actually my co-conspirator at metalasylum.net. Rich Catino is part of the team. And then as far as artists go, Cheyenne Wright is on the project. He's a friend of mine from years back. I know him through podcasting, but he's won major awards. He's won a handful of Hugo Awards. He's an incredible, incredible artist. He made us a wonderful project video, which has been great.
We've got Richard P. Clark, who has done very high profile work. His art has appeared in Sports Illustrated, in Playboy Magazine, and some of the major publications, as well as done some very high profile comics work. He's worked for basically every comics publisher that there is.
James F. Beveridge was just nominated for an Aurora Award in Canada. He's a Canadian artist. He's won a bunch of awards, and he's really just amazing. He's done our cover art, and he's just incredible. And last, but absolutely not least, is Derek Mah who's going to be doing most of the interior panel work. And he and I spent many hours on the phone. He's an incredible artist. He's done a pulpy series called Sharkasaurus. He's also done a Sherlock Holmes series, as well.
So yeah, it's really an honor to be working with all of them. They all amaze me. Everything they've shown me has blown me away. And this is another thing where it's collaborative. I've learned a lot about the writing process and what it means to write comics working with these artists. It's been great.
Melissa Milner 19:52
Let's say you walk into a sixth grade classroom tomorrow with a mask on, and you're a guest, and you're going to be speaking for 45 minutes about how to do a graphic novel. Do you start with a story? Or do you start with images in your head? What would you tell them about the writing process for a graphic novel?
Jack Mangan 20:11
Oh, that is a great question. Well, I was lucky to have the world and the story already fully formed. I didn't have to decide how it was going to start and end so much in this case. But I would say it's really not different, at least in the very, very early stages, it's not different than fiction writing. In fact, I know one of the great science fiction cyberpunk novels of all time, Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, was originally envisioned as a graphic novel and ended up becoming a novel.
I think, just generally, you start with the idea, and then it's a matter of finding the right people to collaborate with. And you end up just learning the best ways for writers and artists to communicate once you go forward with from there. But yeah, the very first thing I would say is make sure you have the idea, and make sure you understand the idea in the world.
And of course, you can change these things mid-flight. You're not stuck with anything until it's actually out and published. But just make sure you have a good grasp, so that once you get going, you're not going to end up in a dead end or in a corner where you're just not sure how to proceed, because it's something you had not anticipated.
Melissa Milner 21:15
So would you think to yourself, oh, I have this great story, but I don't know whether it's a graphic novel. Maybe it's a podcast, because I could see doing three seasons of this thing. Do you look at your story and then decide what media you want it to be in? Or do you start knowing it's gonna be a graphic novel?
Jack Mangan 21:34
Right, another excellent question. I think, generally, most writers have-- even the writers who have dabbled in multiple areas, I think they generally have an idea. My default is just straight prose fiction. That's my default. But you're right. I mean, it could become a narrative poem. It could become a short. It could become a screenplay for an independently made film or into Hollywood.
You're right. You have to decide. I think early on, and this is another thing I've heard, I cited a famous instance. But I've talked to artist friends who've done the same thing, where something has started out in one form, and they've converted. And I think early on-- and you can do that, of course, at any time. You could be complete, and go back and say, I've decided that my 200,000 word epic novel is actually a screenplay and go back and rewrite it or convert it.
But I think early on in the process, that's the time when you can do that. But as a writer, as I said earlier on, you don't ever want to feel frustrated. It should never feel daunting. So I'd say just trust your instincts or trust your intuition on that when you get started. Go with what seems best. But yeah, it's probably a good idea from the get go, once you've maybe written up some notes on your story to decide, at least to commit to a format before you begin.
Melissa Milner 22:53
Yeah, because you don't want to waste time. But at the same time, it could morph into something else. I mean, this podcast started as, hey, maybe I should write a book. And then I realized I had so much stuff to say and so many people to interview. I'm like, this is a podcast. It didn't help that I was listening to a zillion podcasts. But I'm like, there's no way I can get all this into a book. There's a flow of creativity, but then at some point, you have to make a decision.
Jack Mangan 23:21
Right. But I'll also say really quickly, if and when you do eventually write your book, all of your experience here have helped and contributed to that. Or if you decide never to do that, or if you decide to make the movie of The Teacher As..., all these things help. So I think that's the other thing to take away from that.
Melissa Milner 23:40
Absolutely. Awesome. Is there anything else you want to talk about in regards to your writing work, or should we move on to the favorite movie question?
Jack Mangan 23:48
As a writer, of course, writers love to talk. And you probably can relate as a teacher, at least, on that front. We love to talk about the craft and ideas and that kind of thing. I've also, as I alluded earlier, I took a long time where I had to step away from it. And I basically never gave up on it.
So don't worry. If you run into roadblocks or anything, they can always be temporary. You can always get back to it, and this is not like high end athletics. You can always sit down at your typewriter or your computer, whatever you're gonna be writing with 20 years from now.
So if you're not able to get to it today, you can always get back to it. So don't don't be too discouraged if you're not finding that you don't have the bandwidth or the time right now. It will come back. You'll find the opportunities, or the muse will strike so hard that you'll find yourself up at 4AM, still working on it one night.
Melissa Milner 24:41
It is. It's a passion. When it strikes, it holds you. So what is your favorite movie, and why?
Jack Mangan 24:48
Well, as you probably could have guessed by now, I'll never commit to just one. But I'll say probably one of my oldest memories in the world is sitting in the movie theater in 1977, watching the opening crawl, crawl up the screen for the original Star Wars movie. So that's been a part of my life that's just completely embedded in who I am. I grew up-- as I said, that's one of my oldest, if not my oldest, memories, sitting in the theater in 1977, watching Star Wars.
And the toys are a big part of my childhood, and the original three movies were huge, huge events. And so it's too enmeshed in who I am and how I grew up. I know George Lucas has taken a lot of lumps over the years and a lot of criticism, a lot of backlash over other things he's done. But I'll always defend: the original three movies, I think, are really well written. They're really just very clever, very creative, and just basically smashed everything we knew about movies.
Melissa Milner 25:52
Oh, yeah.
Jack Mangan 25:53
But yeah, and I just love also how real the characters are. I love the fact that-- it's not necessarily a bad thing to have very cool and suave superheroes. But if James Bond, for example, were to end up in a trash compactor that was crushing in on him, he would be very cool, and suave, and find a smooth way out, and he wouldn't even break a sweat.
But I love that, in Star Wars, the three of them wind up in there, and they all start yelling at each other, blaming each other. Because that's very real. And I just think it's great. As a three year old, I wasn't thinking that. But looking back at it now, I just watched it not that long ago with my daughter, and I just, again, always react to just how relatable it is and just what an amazing piece of work it is.
Melissa Milner 26:36
Yeah, that little film.
Jack Mangan 26:39
Yeah, this little indie film from the 70s.
Melissa Milner 26:43
Yeah, my very favorite of all time is Jaws, which was in that same time period. Good stuff, good stuff.
Jack Mangan 26:52
Right. And they come from the same place, too, just great, solid. And of course, John Williams is the composer.
Melissa Milner 26:59
Amazing. How can people reach you to learn more about your work?
Jack Mangan 27:02
Well yeah, there are a bunch of ways. But for Am I Evil?, there's a website, which is amievil-graphicnovel.com. There's an Am I Evil? Graphic Novel Facebook page, which I would encourage everyone to go out and take a look at. We also do have Instagram and Twitter, but Facebook is where we're primarily at work.
I also am involved with metalasylum.net, the Metal Hall of Fame, which is metalhalloffame.org. I do have my own website, but it's mainly a gathering place for people. I don't post a whole lot of news and info there. Just occasionally, but that's just jackmangan.com. But you can also friend me on Facebook.
Those are probably the best ways to learn more about me and more about Am I Evil?. Like I said, Am I Evil? is not the only thing I'm working on or will ever do again, but that's at the forefront of my mind. That's what is really exciting for me right now, and I'm really excited to see this come to its next steps.
Melissa Milner 28:00
That's really exciting. And I'm also hoping that some teachers out there, I don't know, whether it's maybe 9th grade through 12th grade, might have some metal heads and might be reaching out to you to get ideas of how to reach them in writing classes.
Jack Mangan 28:15
Oh, I would love to talk to more teachers. If you have questions about any of this stuff, about music or about music writing, by all means, please feel free to contact me through any of the ways I mentioned.
Melissa Milner 28:26
Awesome. Well, thank you again for taking the time out to talk to me.
Jack Mangan 28:29
Thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on.
Melissa Milner 28:33
If you enjoyed this episode, and have not done so already, please hit the subscribe button for The Teacher As... podcast so you can get future episodes. I would love for you to leave a review and a rating, as well, if you have time. For my blog, transcripts of this episode and links to any resources mentioned, visit my website at www.theteacheras.com. You can reach me on Twitter and Instagram @melissabmilner. And I hope you check out The Teacher As... Facebook page for episode updates.
I am sending a special thanks to Linda and Lester Fleishman, my mom and dad, for being so supportive. They are the voices you hear in the Zooming In soundbite. And my dad composed and performed the background music you are listening to right now. My intro music was "Upbeat Party" by Scott Holmes.
So what are you zooming in on? I would love to hear from you. My hope is that we all share what we are doing in the classroom in order to teach, remind, affirm and inspire each other. Thanks for listening. And that's a wrap!