Episode 27: Adventures in Coteaching
Adventures in Coteaching cohost Patricia Piacentini…AKA Tricia.
Guest: Olivia Morris
Guest: Heather Sullivan
L to R: Granny Heather Sullivan and Grandma Olivia Morris
Transcription:
(transcribed by kayla.r.fainer@gmail.com)
Melissa Milner 00:09
Hi, this is Melissa Milner. Welcome to The Teacher As... podcast. The goal of this weekly podcast is to help you explore your passions and learn from others in education and beyond to better your teaching. The Teacher As... podcast will highlight innovative practices and uncommon parallels in education.
It's Adventures in Co-Teaching, and it's not just Tricia Piacentini and myself this time. We have some special guests. So Heather, why don't you introduce yourself?
Heather Sullivan 00:44
Sure. My name is Heather Sullivan. I'm a second grade co-teacher with Olivia Morris. And this is my second year in second grade. But previously, I taught for three years in third grade.
Melissa Milner 00:59
Awesome. And Olivia.
Olivia Morris 01:01
So my name is Olivia Morris, and I am a special education teacher in second grade, of course, with Heather. So I've been a special education teacher in second grade, this is my fifth year. And Heather's my second teacher that I've co-taught with, which is really exciting.
Melissa Milner 01:19
Very cool. And then Tricia, we all know Tricia. Tricia, say hi.
Tricia Piacentini 01:24
Hi, I'm Tricia Piacentini. And I co-teach fourth grade with Melissa, our distinguished host. And this is our first year co-teaching. We were really hoping we could pick your guy's brain about what works, what doesn't work, how do you guys structure co-teaching. We have a bunch of questions. So I'm excited to kind of dive into this.
Melissa Milner 01:50
So Tricia, why don't you start? You had a really good question that you were thinking of asking.
Tricia Piacentini 01:54
Yeah, I have a-- so I was just wondering, how do you guys organize your co-teaching? Do you divide jobs? Does it depend on what you're teaching? How do you organize what you're teaching and when?
Heather Sullivan 02:10
Yeah, I can start. And then Olivia, jump in whenever. So last year was my first year in second grade. So I really relied on Olivia a lot to kind of teach me a lot of the second grade content, but also the ways of second grade. Because I came in strong with a lot of third grade content that was a little bit just too much for our basically beginning of the year first grader. So she really helped me learn what the expectations are and things like that.
For organizing purposes, last year, I feel like it's a better example, because this year is a little different. But we just took subjects. So I did reading, and then Olivia did a bunch with math. But then I think the most important, too, is she did a lot with science, social studies and writing. I would literally sit and take notes on how she was doing things. That just helped organize planning purposes. So you had your different sections. But I really think it depends on the year and depends on the case loads.
Tricia Piacentini 03:20
Okay, yeah, that was my question, too. So where last year you were new to second grade, do you feel like this year, now that you know a little bit more about second grade, has that changed? I know, Olivia, your caseload has changed this year. And I was thinking of that. Because I'm thinking about my caseload this year. And I know the students coming up next year.
So I'm anticipating, as my first year as a co-teacher, that year to year roles change depending on the special education caseload and the caseload of students in general that come into your classroom. And now that you've done this for five years, have you found that to be true?
Olivia Morris 04:00
Yes, 100%. And even if we share what we're lead teaching, we always-- I mean, this year is just so crazy, because you know, who really gets their planning time with everything going on. Everything takes so much longer. But last year, we were so lucky, we would have our specials at the end of the day.
So at the end of the day, we would go through, okay, this week, what's happening in reading? What's happening in math? And just bouncing back and forth, like, oh, it'd be cool if we did this or different things like that.
So last year, it was definitely nice to kind of share that, but also stay connected in how we were delivering that instruction, bouncing ideas off each other. But this year, my caseload is a little bit-- I have more students. And their needs are more individualized to what they can access in the curriculum.
So I feel like Heather's done such a nice job of manning the ship of our class of what feels like a million kids right now, so that I can focus on the students on my caseload. And so every year, it kind of changes. And then there'll be a new curriculum introduced, and I'll start back at zero.
Tricia Piacentini 05:25
Yeah, that's always the wild card, right? Here you go, new curriculum.
Melissa Milner 05:29
Speaking of delivering the instruction, when we were not in COVID, clearly, Heather, you were still in a learning process. So you maybe weren't jumping in on some of the things. You were sitting back and watching and learning.
But with the COVID thing now, are you even ever in the same room? Or are you delivering most of that instruction to the general ed students and Olivia is mostly working in a different room? How is it physically? Who's where?
Heather Sullivan 06:03
Good question. So it really depends on, I would say, what hybrid week we're in. So if we are in an A week, it's nice that there's a teacher in each room. Because sometimes, we'll each deliver the lesson just to the students in front of us and a few students that are remote. And that's just nice, because it just allows us to focus on half the students at a time.
And there's times where either Olivia or I will zoom in to the other class. It's nice to be able to pop over and quickly be like, hey, do you want to try this? Or maybe, I'm noticing this, let's give this a try. So that's nice in person.
When we are on B weeks, we do a lot of streaming in for some of the friends in school. But sometimes they're doing their own thing and we're kind of doing our own thing. And that's okay, because everyone really gets what they need. It's kind of a great week to do that. Fridays, we join forces. And we do some whole class, some breakout rooms for different servicing. But it really just depends.
On our week where we had to be, all of us, full remote, it was like co-teaching again, back and forth with different mini lessons and read alouds. And it felt so great. But, of course, there's always challenges with things like technology and making sure kids have access to everything. So by no means was it easy, but it felt like normal again.
Tricia Piacentini 07:43
Yeah, I would agree. I actually feel like sometimes the remote weeks, when everyone had to be remote, it's actually easier to do small group work. Because the kids can see each other. They're closer to each other for conversations and stuff. For some of that, I felt like it went better with the remote only. But it sounds like you guys found that a little bit more fluid.
Because right now, I'm in person and Melissa is fully remote. So we're never in the building together. I'll be in the building. And I have our paraprofessional, who's wonderful, who's in the other room. So I have another adult. And our rooms are adjoining, which is such a gift. But still, we go almost the whole day, and I can't talk to Melissa. We just text back and forth. It's really hard to connect. It's really weird, you know?
And then the week that we were remote only, I was like in full communication with her all day. I'm like, this is so much more connected. And I would have never anticipated that before this whole thing.
Melissa Milner 08:42
Olivia, so when you started with the teacher before Heather, did you find that there were differences in teaching styles? And then you start with Heather, and did you have to start over with figuring out what are our teaching styles, and are we compatible that way, that whole compatibility thing?
Olivia Morris 09:00
So my co-teacher before was and is an amazing teacher. And I was so lucky to start with her. Because she had so much experience. So I really feel like everything about second grade, I really learned from her, which was great. So then I felt a little bit confident going into this new relationship, where I felt like I could participate and give that gen ed knowledge side, even though I am a special education teacher.
So having that switch, of course, when things change, that's hard, of course, with everything. And everyone was so nervous about the switches. But I really feel like Heather and I-- and Heather, you should speak to this, too. But I really feel like we just snapped into it and got right into the groove. It was really an easy transition for me.
And I feel like Heather and I have similar views about teaching and the same philosophy. And so it was really easy. Plus, I feel like we're both-- I always say this. I feel like I'm a laid back teacher. But maybe it's not true at all. I don't know what other people would say.
Heather Sullivan 10:15
No, you are. You absolutely are.
Olivia Morris 10:18
I feel like we're very flexible and very go with the flow. So it really is working to our advantage, which I had no problem shifting. But I don't know. Heather, how did you feel about it?
Heather Sullivan 10:33
So at first, I didn't really know what to expect in regards to, again, the organization. And I think I probably asked Olivia a thousand questions as we were transitioning in. But she was just so great and flexible. And I'd be like, hey, how about this? She'd be like, sure. I don't think there was many things that was like, oh, let's compromise.
It was just so easy. And we say all the time, it's like we almost have the same brain. Oh, yeah, let's do that. Oh, I was thinking that, too. And so it was a big, almost, relief.
I always say, change is really hard. And I was worried how second grade would be, because I loved third so much. And nothing against third grade, but I am in love with second grade now and the co-teaching model. Because I think that it not only benefits us, as teachers, because I'm literally learning from Olivia every single day.
But the students, to see their growth socially, emotionally and academically is amazing. And we always say, they're all our students. So we're both your teachers, all of us. So I just love that model. And I think that more schools should have it.
Olivia Morris 11:50
Yes, it lends to such great lessons about empathy and inclusion, as well. Every year, we start out with-- I think, Heather, last year was the first year that we did it. I mean, we always teach the kids, everyone gets what they need, everyone gets what they need.
Last year, we found this Band-Aid lesson, where every kid gets assigned an injury, from like a scraped knee or I bumped my head or broken leg. We talk about what's equal, what's fair, different things like that. And they always say that fair is equal. Everyone gets the same. If he gets two scoops of ice cream, I want two scoops of ice cream.
And so after we give them their little injury, we solve the first one, which is always a scrape. Because you can fix it with a Band-Aid. Everyone gets a Band-Aid. Everyone gets the same thing. You guys told us, that's fair. And it's just a great way to teach about equity and how everyone gets what they need. Because then we refer to it all year.
And especially in our classroom with our students, they need breaks, and they need fidgets, and they need adaptive seating. And everything is so different for some of them. So it's a great way to say, everyone gets what they need. And the kids all benefit from that. And so then when it's their turn to get something that they need, it's an easy switch. I think it's a great model. I'm all for it.
Tricia Piacentini 13:18
Yeah, that's really well said. Really well said, Olivia. So you guys said that the kids really see you as both your teachers, that you're both their teachers. I mean, do you feel like you have to do anything special to cultivate that sense in the classroom? Or do you feel like the students fell into that?
Olivia Morris 13:37
I think it's the way that we start off the year and the way that we introduce everybody. We have a paraprofessional that works with us this year. Last year, it was just the two of us. And so Heather will do a great job. And sometimes I'm not as great, but I always try, too, to say Miss Sullivan and I did this. And Miss Sullivan and I talked, and we thought about this to say that we're doing things together. And we address our emails to families as such.
And at our school, because families are so familiar with this model because it's been around for a while, families are on board. And they understand it, which trickles down to their children understanding it. So we always try to use that language to cultivate how we're a team, and we're your teachers, and we're working together.
The other thing we have, too, and we always have to talk about this with the kids is if you ask one teacher-- it's like when kids go home and ask one parent. And that parent says no. So they ask the other parent. And we have to do that right away, especially sometimes three of us in the classroom all together. So they can kind of go back and forth to see if they'll get the answer they want.
Tricia Piacentini 14:54
Yeah, we actually started to run into that this year, as well. So it's so funny that you say that.
Olivia Morris 15:00
Yeah, every year.
Melissa Milner 15:03
Do you both do all the parent conferences together?
Heather Sullivan 15:08
Yes. Which is great, because Olivia has so many great strengths, especially the social emotional side. And I think particularly this year, that was such a huge resource for families in these very much uncharted waters. And just like you guys, we have a lot of students this year. And so to kind of truck through with someone to get it done, by the end, we were celebrating. We were cheering.
They were great conferences. I don't really think we had a bad one. But it's just a lot. And it was nice to have someone to go through it and bounce ideas off of prior to meeting with parents.
Melissa Milner 15:57
Absolutely. In a way, it helps that I'm remote all the time and Tricia is in. Because we can both give the remote, how is your child doing remotely? And then I know I can't do this conference alone, because Tricia is the only one who's in to give that feedback about being in. So we were gonna do it together anyway. But it even was more so, we couldn't have done it otherwise. Because I wouldn't be able to speak to what's going on in person.
Tricia Piacentini 16:28
One of the things that really surprised me is how quickly and seamlessly the kids just accepted that Melissa and I were their teachers, and our paraprofessional, Mrs. Wilkinson, who's wonderful. Just we're all their teachers, they come to all of us. It's not like, oh, this is just a Mrs. Milner thing. This is just a Mrs. P thing. This is just a Mrs. Wilkinson thing. And I've been very impressed by that.
And we certainly did those same things as you. We made a concerted effort to try to include both of us on every email and respond together. Certainly, it's not perfect, but we really make that effort. And I think that's pretty much it.
We don't have to say to the kids, remember, so and so is your teacher, too. There's none of that happening. They don't see us as-- even the paraprofessional as a helper teacher. They really see it as this classroom just has a bunch of teachers. That's just how we roll, you know?
Melissa Milner 17:26
That's right.
Tricia Piacentini 17:27
Because this whole thing was new for me. So coming from a sub separate setting and a partial inclusion setting where I drop in and out of rooms, it was very clear that, although the kids were friendly and knew who I was, I was sort of that teacher who floats in and out.
So it was a different experience for me. So I anticipated this being so much more work to get to that place with the kids. And it wasn't, which was really exciting to see.
Melissa Milner 17:54
Do you have tips or top ideas for making co-teaching work?
Olivia Morris 18:02
My number one thing, and it makes me laugh, because we work with a population of students that this is really hard for me to say it all day long, but just be flexible and really not to take anything personally. And I think that can be hard. Because teachers usually are so passionate about what they're teaching and how they're teaching it. And it's such a passionate and emotion filled job of love and this and that.
And just to be willing to be open or change how you've done things, and I think that's the biggest tip. And you have to be able to really, truly do that, which is hard. That would be my tip is just be flexible, and be open, and just try new things. And listen. I don't know. What do you think, Heather?
Heather Sullivan 18:59
I completely agree. Because I feel like it might not be the way that you envisioned it as the teacher. But then when your co-teacher does it, you're still learning something new to add to your bag of tricks. And I think just being open and communicating is crucial. Because you don't want to bottle anything up, because that's not going to get anywhere.
And modeling, too, I think that's so important. We talk all the time, sometimes in front of the kids, like, oh, what do you think about this? Or even like, oops, I made a mistake. Sorry, Mrs. Morris. Mrs. Morris, she'll have to tell that story. But it's another thing we model that we all need to do all the time. But we also have a saying, mistakes help us learn and grow. And I learned it's okay, too, for the other teacher to speak up, too, in the moment.
So at first, let's say I'm teaching reading or if Mrs. Morris was teaching math. If you have a great idea, quickly share it. It will add to the lesson, and it will be important. Whereas at first, I was like, oh, I don't want to interrupt, I don't want to interrupt. But then in reality, a quick comment might make a connection for another student. And not that you want to constantly be interjecting, but having multiple ideas and multiple perspectives, I feel like, is important for the amount of diverse learners that we have.
Olivia Morris 20:29
Yes, so true. And that's kind of where I was going with this. So thank you for putting it into words for me with the not taking anything personal. If you're interjecting, you add something, it's not because what they're doing, you don't think that's the right thing to do, or you think your way is better.
But it's just adding that second layer, which is always good, because not everyone takes the information or the instructions the same way. Some people need a spin on things. So I think just getting comfortable with that is really helpful.
Tricia Piacentini 21:02
I think that that's an awesome point. Because Melissa has a lot more experience with content than I do. I'm sort of like, people give me content, and I make it accessible to kids. That's sort of my gig for a long, long time. My whole thing is, I don't always know where second grade ends and third grade begins. Do you know what I mean?
Because I used to work on a continuum based on where a student was at skill wise, not necessarily focused as much on content. And so this year, that's a big shift for me, learning content. And Melissa is so much more knowledgeable about content than I am.
And so I've been trying to do science and social studies. And I'll do things, and she'll jump in. And I'll be like, oh, thank god she said that, because I wouldn't have thought of that. So I actually really feel like I'm learning a lot by those moments that you're describing. I wouldn't take that personally, but I can see where someone might. A lot of that has to do with the relationship that we have, which is kind of nice. I come into the position like, oh, I really want to learn more.
So I think as a co-teacher, if you're coming into a co-teacher thinking you're going to bestow your wisdom on your partner, that's going to go poorly. Teaching in general, but particularly co-teaching, if you come in saying, boy, I'm really excited-- if you're excited about learning in general, then you're going to be excited to learn how to teach more, or teach better, or teach differently. It just so rings true what you're saying.
So I'm just going to share one of my big failures. So I was teaching-- yeah, I'm just gonna put it out there. I am not feeling particularly vulnerable now. I feel very safe with you all. So I did a plate tectonics lesson that went horribly wrong. So we've been calling it the plate tectonic debacle. And so Melissa was very respectful and didn't interrupt me or anything.
And then afterward, we talked about it. And I was like, I so wish you had stopped me in the middle. It was too long. The content was too high for the kids. It was an awesome video for middle school, right? And I was like, this is so much detail and it's great. But it was way too much for the kids. And so then I ended up scaling stuff back and learning from that experience.
Melissa Milner 23:20
Yeah, and I was being too polite. I knew exactly what she was doing. I knew where she was coming from. How do I tell-- like I didn't even know how to in front of the kids. And it wasn't as horrible as she's saying, by the way. It was not--
Tricia Piacentini 23:38
Oh, it was bad. She's being way nicer. It was a bad lesson.
Melissa Milner 23:42
It was not Plate Tectonics Gate. But it's more just learning the pacing. But at the same time, maybe I'm better at the pacing. But I'm not always great at being super clear and introducing something. So I'll introduce something. And Tricia will come on and say, Mrs. Milner.
And she'll ask it like a kid. Mrs. Milner, do you mean da, da, da? And I'm like, gosh, darn it. I didn't even say that. So I'm like, thank goodness she came on and said that. So it's like, I don't mind when she comes in on it. So maybe I need to not be so tiptoeing.
Olivia Morris 24:25
And that's a perfect way to do it, too, is to ask a question with that student perspective. Especially as special educators, I think we're always thinking of, how are the students on my caseload perceiving this and what might they need from teachers. So that's a great way to do it, too, is to just ask it in that student perspective way.
The other thing, too, is apologizing. There have been so many times where maybe I wasn't my best self. Or maybe things didn't go as I planned. And for me to say, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I left you off that email. I can't believe I did that. That's totally my mistake. And to be able to stop and be like, I was just having a really bad day. I'm sorry, yesterday, if I-- you know? Just like in any relationship, being a co-teacher, it's a relationship.
So any of those good relationship skills, but that's the other one, too. If you recognize that like, okay, yesterday, I just had no patience. I just couldn't get out of my own way, wasn't really feeling it. So I'm sorry. Today's gonna be better. That's really important, too. Heather and I don't really disagree often.
But there definitely have been moments, I know for myself, especially this year, it's crazy teaching this year. So it's good to just be humble enough to be like, oh, my bad. I'm sorry.
Melissa Milner 25:58
Yeah, and I think also just to be reflective. And realize, oh, I didn't-- being a reflective practitioner is so important in co-teaching.
Heather Sullivan 26:10
Absolutely. And we're all human. We all make mistakes. We all have good days. We all bad days. And I think sometimes, for teachers in particular, we all have lives outside. But sometimes it's hard, because you put the kids first. But it's nice to have a co-teacher to remind use like, no, you have something to do. Go, I got this.
Melissa Milner 26:35
Yes, absolutely.
Heather Sullivan 26:38
It's just that balance. And I mean, Olivia and I both have a nice thing in common, that we're both engaged. Now Mrs. Morris is married, which is very exciting. But it was nice to be human and talk about things other than school, too. And I do think that that added to our relationship.
Olivia Morris 26:56
Yes.
Heather Sullivan 26:57
Because there is a time you've got to just shut off work, because it could consume you. And I think having those real conversations really added to our relationship.
Olivia Morris 27:09
Yes, so true.
Melissa Milner 27:11
That's awesome.
Tricia Piacentini 27:12
Yeah, that is awesome.
Melissa Milner 27:14
We're not good at stopping.
Tricia Piacentini 27:16
We're not there yet. Melissa is worse than me, though. I will say that. Like she works-- I just don't even know she sleeps, just so you know.
Melissa Milner 27:24
It's sort of my-- it's my hobby. I enjoy it. I don't do the hard stuff. I do the fun stuff, like planning curriculum. I don't sit and do grading. That I put off, and I put off. But thank goodness, I enjoy my work.
Tricia Piacentini 27:43
Thank you, you guys. We were excited to talk to you. Because we're really learning. We're really at the beginning.
Melissa Milner 27:51
This was really great.
Heather Sullivan 27:52
This was awesome.
Olivia Morris 27:54
I know. Thank you for having us.
Melissa Milner 27:57
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I am sending a special thanks to Linda and Lester Fleishman, my mom and dad, for being so supportive. They are the voices you hear in the Zooming In soundbite. And my dad composed and performed the background music you are listening to right now. My intro music was "Upbeat Party" by Scott Holmes.
So what are you zooming in on? I would love to hear from you. My hope is that we all share what we are doing in the classroom in order to teach, remind, affirm and inspire each other. Thanks for listening. And that's a wrap!
