Zooming In on Narrative Nonfiction with Candace Fleming
Candace doing research for one of her nonfiction books.
Candace teaching a workshop for students.
How to reach Candace:
Transcript:
Melissa Milner 0:09
Welcome to The Teacher As... podcast. I'm your host Melissa Milner, a teacher who is painfully curious and very easily inspired. This podcast is ever changing. And I hope with each season, you find episodes that speak to you in your work as an educator. This is the fifth season of The Teacher As... and it's exciting to see the growth in how many educators are listening. Episodes are released every other week. If you enjoy The Teacher As... please rate it on Apple podcast and leave a review. It helps the podcast reach more educators. Thanks for listening.
Candace Fleming 0:41
I'm Candace Fleming and I write books for the smallest readers, preschool, and oldest readers, at least in the world of what I write, which would be young adults, teenagers.
Melissa Milner 0:52
Yes, so like middle school, high school, everything fiction and nonfiction. I'm mostly familiar with your nonfiction so I could you just, you know name some titles of some of your fiction and nonfiction books.
Candace Fleming 1:07
I have fiction or I'm sorry, I have nonfiction for pretty much all grades. So elementary, I have Honey Bee which won the Seibert two years ago. Giant Squid, which won a Cyber Honor? Polar Bear, the Tide Pool Waits. All of those are picture books. I have some middle group, middle school stuff: Crashed from Outer Space, Curse of the Mummy. I'm trying to think what else? Oh, the Enigma Girls just came out. And then I have some older stuff. For high schoolers, The Family Romanov, which was oh gosh, ah, Los Angeles Times Book Prize and a Horn Book, you know, nonfiction award winner. Murder Among Friends, which got six star reviews and is actually true crime for young adults.
Melissa Milner 1:56
Wow!
Candace Fleming 1:57
The Rise and Fall of Charles Lindbergh, which won the YALSA excellence and nonfiction award. So yeah.
Melissa Milner 2:02
Amazing. How long have you been writing?
Candace Fleming 2:05
Well, I always say, all my life. And that's what I'll tell students when I go to schools. And then they also want proof. So I bring notebooks with me, journals from when I was in fifth grade, or eighth grade or 12th grade. So I always say I've been writing all my life. But I've been publishing now for about 28 years. So it's a long time.
Melissa Milner 2:25
Yeah.
Candace Fleming 2:26
It felt... it went fast, though. Let me tell you.
Melissa Milner 2:28
Was it easy to get published? Or did you have to like put in manuscript after manuscript?
Candace Fleming 2:32
Oh, gosh, my publishing story is not your usual publishing story. I got very, really I just want to say got very lucky. My very first manuscript, it was a non... it was a fiction picture book. I took it to the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators conference here in Illinois, where I live. It's one of the few local SC BWI conferences I ever went to. I went because there was an editor there whose books I loved, just adored. And her name is Anne Schwartz. And while I was there, she heard the story that I had brought along to workshop and she actually asked to take it home. And that's sort of the beginning of my writing career. And I have been with it ever since. So she's my one constant. And amazing editor and friend.
Melissa Milner 2:32
That's unbelievable. You brought it just to kind of workshop and share it and...
Candace Fleming 3:25
Right and she heard it read at the workshop.
Melissa Milner 3:27
And she loved it and just wow.
Candace Fleming 3:31
And her favorite her favorite story. She just told it at a at an ALA breakfast last year, she had forgotten that when she said can I take that manuscript after she'd heard it? She knew who it belonged to. She came up to me and she said, can I take that home? Can I take that back to New York with me? And I actually said to her, it's not done yet. Because I had some stuff I wanted to fix. So yeah, she was okay. So I laughed. But...
Melissa Milner 3:59
She's like, Yeah, yeah, I get it. My point is I want to help you.
Candace Fleming 4:03
Yeah, yeah. I want to help you. Yeah. But I had stuff to do, right? Yeah.
Melissa Milner 4:07
That's so great.
Candace Fleming 4:08
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Milner 4:10
Wow. Well, I think you know, I'm going to have Candace Fleming. I want to really focus in on you know, what teachers might be interested in hearing from you and I am assuming I know me as a teacher... top tips for teaching students how to write really great nonfiction I think would be really amazing from you. You know, interviewing, researching, you know how to take that information from the research and interviewing, organize it, storytell with it, all of that I think would be really amazing.
Candace Fleming 4:46
So, here's my I, I do teach a lot of I actually go and do a lot of nonfiction workshops with kids and I've done it from second grade to high school. And here's I think the number one thing that you... at least I see that we can all improve on when we're talking about research that we're doing research and nonfiction writing that we're going to do with young students, students. My number one thing is, is, well, I have two things. One is that we always ask for too big of a bite, like huge bite. And so why we asked fourth graders to give me a, you know, a report about an entire state, or the whole life of Benjamin Franklin is, is sort of beyond me, because it's beyond them. And if the purpose of research and writing I mean, that purpose for them to do this sort of practice, right, we're, we're actually learning how to do it. So you're not going to get any great results, unless you actually make that a much smaller bite. So I would recommend like the whole class to Amelia Earhart, and everybody take one section, or, or childhoods of depending on what age you are, or pets of, you can actually do research about one pet that belonged to Abraham Lincoln, one life of a pet one that you see what's happening here is to two things. One, it's a smaller bite. But two, it's connected to the actual person doing the research. So what the problem I believe, is that what you get is when you say, um, you know, I want four pages or whatever about Benjamin Franklin, what you get is a whole bunch of facts. Benjamin Franklin was born on blah, Benjamin Franklin did these achievements, Benjamin Franklin was married to Benjamin Franklin died blog. And that is, that's not research. That's fact retrieval. And it's not good writing, either.
Candace Fleming 6:42
So what I think we ought to get into the mindset is, is that research is... is about as personal a learning, a personal learning as you can possibly get, because research means that you follow your own curiosity, and you ask your own questions of a particular topic. So that's my one, you know, my two big things, one, topics that are interesting, that will allow kids to ask their own questions, and two topics that are small. And I have done projects, I have done workshops with like fourth and fifth sixth graders, middle school, where I bring in one primary source, right, so we could talk about a primary source, what it actually is, and how we use them. And so I will bring in one primary source and ask kids to what do they learn from it? What do they want to know more about because of it, and ask them and you can infer too and then double check if your if your guesswork was good. And then they can write a piece about it doesn't have to be a long piece. But now they've actually worked like a researcher. And I'll give you an example. I have a sixth grade, I have a sixth grade report card of Amelia Earhart only think of this because I just use it Virginia last week. I have a sixth grade report card from Amelia Earhart. And you learn a lot, right? You learn what kind of students she was in sixth grade, you learn what she took in sixth grade, you learn the fact that she took sewing, which leads young people that then say, well, why did she have to take sewing, which now tells you about the society that Amelia Earhart grew up in? But did she ever need sewing, it shows you what school she went to, which was a college preparatory school. So indicating, eventually if you ask that question, and you go to find the answer, you'll discover that it was an expensive school, and that it was a really good education. And you also discover which I love kids, I was loved this at the top of the name on the report card is Milly Earhart.
Melissa Milner 8:40
Oh, that's fantastic.
Candace Fleming 8:43
And that her last name was spelled wrong by her teacher, the teacher put a D and then actually crossed out put a T she had Earhard instead of Earhart. Yeah. And kids love that.
Melissa Milner 8:54
Talk about specific, right?
Candace Fleming 8:56
Yeah, talk about specific, but here you go. Because kids know report cards themselves, they generate a lot of really great questions. And they can actually find the answers to those questions. And if they don't, that's research, sometimes you don't find the answer. And you can use that in your piece that you write as well.
Candace Fleming 9:15
It's so interesting. What I love is when we're going down a track, you know, part of our we do the ARC reading program, and they do animal adaptations reports, basically, you know, nonfiction writing, and I mean, so there's like set research questions, unfortunately, instead of them being able, but you know, it's fine. It's fine. But within that a lot of the students go down, it's like going down a rabbit hole, they find out one thing and they're like, but wait a minute, then how does that but you know, they'll ask a question and then I'll like, Okay, go go ahead and find out and then then even within that very restricted thing, they're still able to be like, but I just found this out. How did that and they're able to still do some of that
Candace Fleming 9:58
say, I agree. I agree with you and I think it's the restriction that actually creates some freedom, because there's just so much if a unique topic like the life of Benjamin Franklin, there's just so much so you don't even know what to question. But if you talk about like, if you have a have a, have a student write about one experiment that Benjamin Franklin did, like maybe the one about the the ants, right, that he actually just watches ants for a while. And then yeah, then creates a thing of honey so they can follow and yeah, which is the lead ant? And I mean, if you just let a kid right about that, right, yeah, that child would have a lot of questions. It is I think it's the limiting part that actually is sort of freeing. And I've also done workshops where I've actually given the set what I call the essentials, because it's a waste of time. So I will tell you, the day I do have one with Fido Lincoln, the Fido's dog, where we look at, or we look at a couple of primary sources, which includes photos of Lincoln and his dog and what Springfield looked like in 1850. And I will tell you, you know, when was when was what's Fidos? Fido is Fido Lincoln, right? The who, what, where I give it to you. So it's Fido Lincoln and you know, he was born about 1855 and he died about 1866. And where were Springfield, Illinois, so are those things that we asked kids to go searching for, which isn't any search, you can find that pretty quick, you know, what we want is for them to write to get into the heart of the of the whole thing. That's what we really want. And we want that they want we want them to have a good time with it. So...
Melissa Milner 11:38
What a great idea. I love that. Pets of famous people.
Candace Fleming 11:42
Yeah, you know, and they all have like, and they have some weird stuff. You know, it requires a, you know, a little, little effort poor overworked teachers, but really not much because you can pull up, you know, you could pull, you could just do pets of presidents. I'm sure they're these books.
Melissa Milner 11:57
That's great. So in your book, in your the Enigma Girls, there was like dialogue, you know, saying she remembered. So you either had read that somewhere and pulled it out and did it? Or you had interviewed this person? So do you do actual interviews?
Melissa Milner 12:15
I do do actual interviews. For the Bletchley girls on fortunately, they are gone. I was in brief contact with one, but she's now gone. But they all left behind... few of them wrote their own memoirs about their time. And few of them. Yeah. And they, and they were the ones that would say, Oh, I stood there thinking. Or if I say she recalled, it's because she was in her in her book was recalling a memory of them actually left interviews that are recorded at Bletchley. So they have recorded interviews with them. So you can actually hear their voices, which I really, really loved. So that you can they would be asked questions, and then they would tell about how it felt to be sitting there so long at the type X machine for 10 hours a day and the sound of it and how at night, they would be nervous because she could still hear I mean, you know, they would tell these amazing details that you off, you can't find anywhere else. So it was the next best thing to actually interviewing them?
Melissa Milner 13:16
Absolutely. Do you want to just give the listeners because people might not know about the Enigma Girls and what you're talking about.
Candace Fleming 13:22
I have a new book. It's called Enigma Girls. And what's the subtitle, how 10 teenagers, crack codes,
Melissa Milner 13:29
How 10 teenagers, broke ciphers. kept secrets, and helped win World War Two.
Candace Fleming 13:33
And they did. Bletchley Park was a place in England during World War Two. That was secret top secret, it was an old a state that had been turned into this top secret code and cipher breaking center, really. And it is their major work, they were doing a lot of code breaking and cipher, mostly cipher breaking, because the Enigma machine that the Germans were using is a cipher, not a code. So that's what they were breaking where their bulk of their effort was on breaking those codes so that first so they could figure out where the Germans might be planning to bomb during the Blitz next, and then eventually, they got so good at it, they got so good at it, that in the five years that they were there, that they were they were breaking those ciphers in about 20 minutes and they were breaking AB we're one of the most kind of enigma that is was really difficult and it was used by Hitler and his top chain of command. So they were they knew pretty much everything that was happening.
Candace Fleming 14:35
And the Germans never caught on to the fact that there were these people that were listening and deciphering and recording, you know, in files and feeding that into the bomb machines and coming up with cord. I mean, it's was this amazing, like it was like a cipher breaking factory.
Melissa Milner 14:53
Yeah.
Candace Fleming 14:53
And it was top top secret so the Germans never discovered it. And what was fascinating about it is that most of the work at Bletchley Park was done by girls between the ages of 14 and 18 years old teenagers who would get a letter seriously at their house that would say you are you have to report to Station X, which was the codename for Bletchley. On such and such a day, I can't tell you what Station X is, we can't tell you what job you're going to have. Just here's your... here's your ticket, get on the train, and get off on the second stop or fourth stop or whatever.
Melissa Milner 15:31
Unbelievable.
Candace Fleming 15:32
Um, so they would take things like their teddy bears, and the record players and, and just just these young women, very young women who had never left home far less sophisticated than young women are now right. And they went off and they did this job. And they did it really, really well. They did that hard, grinding, slogging work of being there every day, and being committed. And then to make things you know, worse. They couldn't talk about what they were doing at the time. They couldn't talk with each other at Bletchley Park, about that what they were doing. And then they had to sign the Secrets Act, which said that they could never tell anyone what they had done. And it wasn't until the ad set stories about what really happened at Bletchley started to come forward. And then once people realized, I mean, seriously, here's this piece of history that sort of stays, you know, under wraps for 50 years after the fact. And then, when people realize what was done there, they, not only did they turn Bletchley Park into a museum now, and it's fab fabulous, but they made sure that whoever had worked at Bletchley, they tried to get as many of those stories afadavids put them on interviewed on recording as they possibly could.
Melissa Milner 16:52
Amazing. So when you do interview, do you go in with a set questions? Or do you go in more to keep it more open?
Candace Fleming 17:04
Um, I have it's kind of a hybrid approach. And I'm right now I'm just finishing up a project, believe it or not about Jonestown, and people's temple for teenagers. And there were about 80 people that survived Jonestown, that were actually in Guyana, and who actually survived that that massacre. And many of them had been teenagers at the time. And so I really wanted to talk with them. And so I came in with some real specific questions. But once they started to talk, I kind of let them go, because I ended up hearing things that I would never have thought to ask. And then of course, I have to have follow up questions to things that they told me oftentimes, they would say something that didn't, you know, jibe with what somebody else had said, or what I've read, and that I could ask them to clarify. So in many cases, you know, I beg for 20 minutes. I mean, that's usually how I start. I promise I won't take much time. And I'll just 20 minutes. And I have certainly questions for 20 minutes. But my discovery is that once you get them talking, and they realize that you really are interested, and want to do my interviews very late in the process, so I know my subject pretty well. So I think they know when I come in that they know that I actually know some things. And I asked for 20 minutes, but I've never had one that stuck to 20 minutes. A couple of I consider them my friends now a couple of them were like, wait, I needed there was more I need to tell you. Can you cut what are you doing tomorrow? You know, can we talk in such a time? Great. Aha, it was great. And sometimes I thought they just needed to actually talk. It's such as venting. Yeah. Yeah. Just to talk about it. I know one of them. One of them said he was actually enjoying the conversations. And I thought, considering that we're we're talking about some very hard topics and some really difficult memories. But not everything was horrible for them. But they had friends and they had things they wanted to tell me one of them said please don't forget to tell those teenagers that we laughed. And I thought, you know, that was, you know, I thought okay, that's I actually use that quote. Oh, that's great.
Melissa Milner 19:21
Have you been in touch with the Ania knowledge about cults? I
Candace Fleming 19:26
have her I have her book here. Yeah. I talked to Dr. Rebecca Moore. And in fact, I don't even use the word called, although, you know, it's a destructive group. But there is that whole cautionary edge to the story, right? Because, I mean, let's face it, at least I don't. I don't tell history just because I think readers should know about a particular piece of history. I tell it because I have something to say about how we live in the present. And so I have a few things to say to my readers with that piece of history. So I'll have a lot of blood to say about influence. Right,
Melissa Milner 20:00
I think that's really actually a great thing to teach the students that you are not just gathering information to regurgitate you actually should have an maybe an opinion and, and maybe in your intro or your conclusion actually state that in a way. Yeah, yeah, I
Candace Fleming 20:20
have a purpose. And I don't, I don't necessarily have to tie, especially if I'm writing for young adults, I don't have to, I don't have to, you know, connect all the dots for them. They get it. They're smart. I trust them. They, you know, certainly if I could, if I could possibly even connect the dots. Right. But it's so instead I will kind of let them do that. But I do have definitely do have a purpose. I always tell kids, you know, I know when you think about you think about nonfiction, you think it's this place where I can gather some where I go to gather some facts, right? And then I say to them You ever think about the fact that nonfiction is actually can change the world not in like a ginormous, you know, world peace kind of thing. But it actually can change hearts and minds, one person and a person, one person at a time, maybe even more effectively than fiction. In fact, I believe more effectively than fiction because the reason a writer writes about something, it's it's a topic that they really care about, or they love about or their consumption that really deeply concerns them. And they want to share this viewpoint they want to share this, this thing with other people, because they want them to love or grow concerned or whatever that is that you're passing along with that topic, as well. Yeah. And so it really does have there really is a purpose beyond using my nonfiction for report, which makes me sad, even even when I think about it, I just don't use it for a report. Okay, fine. But it really wants you to, to love the book, right? I really want you to love that true story.
Melissa Milner 21:56
Right? And I, I do think that Lauren Tarsus has done an amazing job. Because her historical fiction, then she has the nonfiction accompanied stories with that where she does that more narrative nonfiction. And I think the kids have really gravitated towards that. Well, here's this fiction. It hers is historical fiction, but she has accompanying books that are nonfiction too. Oh, I didn't realize oh, yeah, they're fantastic. So you get him in with a historical fiction. And then you're like, let's read the her nonfiction and see how she does that. And, and then like, I mean, I'm just started a Nygma girls, and I'm like, this should be a read aloud. Like, why would this not be a read aloud? Why do we only read aloud fiction, you know? I mean, I don't I always read I do nonfiction, as well. But I agree with
Candace Fleming 22:44
you. Because yeah, I think about writing fiction, I always think about wanting to create the very same it reading experience that you will if you were creating a novel, so you feel blanks in your head, you'll notice that even all of my nonfiction looks like a novel. I mean, the trim size is something I'm really weird about because I really want that to look like fiction, I want them to have that same experience. So they have characters, they have locations, right? They problems, they have solutions, everything. I mean, it's just the same thing. Here's here's what I say the difference between fiction and nonfiction is, is when I write fiction, I get to go to the store, my goal is to create a delicious cake like that you're gonna gobble up, right. And so I go to the grocery store, and I buy every delicious ingredient, I can think of chocolate coconut, maple, syrup, sprinkles, you name it, I got it. And I whipped those delicious ingredients into this delicious cake that you gobble up in one sitting. That's fiction, nonfiction is like a cent Eric to the grocery store. And he comes home with Tabasco sauce, some liver, a bottle of Pepto Bismol. And, you know, some arugula, and I'm supposed to take those ingredients, and still whip up a delicious dessert that you're gonna gobble up in, you know, one sitting, and that's the difference is that I have to work within this fence. And in some ways, I think, writing nonfiction I know even though because, well, you know what happens? Yeah, I know what happens. But the problem is, I can't change anything. I can't make up any dialogue out of talent. And so I spent a lot of time searching for things for you know, details like you know, if I tell you the carpet screen, it was green.
Melissa Milner 24:28
Right? That's awesome. So great. Why
Candace Fleming 24:32
do I do this? Yeah.
Melissa Milner 24:34
Oh my gosh, that brings up a good that's my next thing is story elements. So you know, setting and characters and plot and, you know, like you said, there's already restriction there with you got to stick with what actually happened and you know, but within that the craft of setting the scene, you know that I mean, you're I again, I've read 37 pages so far, and Like, Oh my gosh, you know, you're like you're first starting to just give the background of the World War and World War Two. And it's just like, I'm there. I'm ready. You know, it's real. It's great. So like, what tips for? What do you do and tips for teachers for that the craft of those story elements?
Candace Fleming 25:19
Here's the number one thing and I like narrative nonfiction. I actually believe people are better through story than and they remember and care more if it's a story. And let's face it, I'm prime writing history. It's all story. It's just true. Um, so here's my, here's the thing. I think we don't think about writing nonfiction. I know I do. Because and you can tell I know reading a Nygma girls. So even the whole first scene starts on the morning of in Poland, right, and every single one of those details I pulled from newspapers or from personal accounts, or whatever. So just recreating that time in Poland required a lot of research, right. But here's the thing. Nonfiction needs to be written in scenes just like fiction. So scenes are what move that story forward, not just sentences, word sentences and paragraphs, but a scene and a scene, at least when I think of it in terms of nonfiction, and I use it in my fiction, too. So is three elements, it's a specific time, a specific place, and one change. So the scene is something you want to come in close to, and see what that place that you want readers to come and close, because it's an important moment in that story, just like in fiction, and so you're going to stop, look around. And then as soon as that one change happens, you're going to move away. So let's talk about like the scene, we're opening scene. In Poland, it's a beautiful morning, people are waking up, it's rural Poland, it's you know, and the change, of course, is that suddenly, the skies filled with Nazi planes and tanks are coming over the border. And this is what has changed. And as soon as that happens, then you kind of move on to the next important scene. So I always think about scenes, and I blocked them in my nonfiction, just like I do when I write fiction. So
Melissa Milner 27:12
do you do like a storyboard like index card thing? Or do you think if I have
Candace Fleming 27:17
one I use a? That is that what's the number a three, that long paper? Actually just draw a big square? And I'll go, you know, we're gonna start with this. And then we're gonna go here.
Melissa Milner 27:31
So you know, you should be doing documentaries, right? That's basically what you're doing? It is?
Candace Fleming 27:36
Well, yeah. What do you think? Why do you think Ken Ken Burns is so popular? You know, everybody loves Ken Burns. But that's his is all true. But it's all seeds, right? It is all seeds. And you always have to have somebody to hang on to, I think, somebody that you care about, and I know that good name with girls, it's 10 young women that we sort of hang on to, but there are three main players that kind of stay with us from beginning to end. But yeah, that's exactly it. So. And I think, you know, I teach kids to write in scenes when they write nonfiction too. And I use my what I call my super secret formula, which I've told 1000s and 1000s and 1000s. But probably 100,000. Good, but it's
Melissa Milner 28:16
not really secret anyone.
Candace Fleming 28:20
And it really is, it's just claps character, location, action, problem and solution. You can use it for fiction, but let's talk about it with nonfiction and like something small. Let's talk What are you talking about their animals? They were doing their animal? Yeah,
Melissa Milner 28:34
so it was animal adaptations. So it would be physical characteristics was one set of research questions for that. And then behavioral adaptations, and then lifecycle but like adaptations that help them throughout their lifecycle, food, web, and adaptations that help them survive in the food web and find food and food but there's two more threat. There's a sixth one that I'm not thinking of. But
Candace Fleming 29:01
so you can take all those adaptations that you just did, and they could write a little scene about say, like the cheetah, so see character, and you can tell me describe the cheetah, right physically describe location, where does the cheetah live? So you can describe the place where that cheetah lives action? What is the cheetah doing in that location? When your scene starts? What's that? What's he doing? laying around whatever I mean, now you could have him hunt. He's laying around suddenly he's hungry and he's gonna go on for something or you could have them Didn't you say who who hunts him so you predators and that's so it could be the other way around. And then problem of course is is real enough to be a real life problem for well
Melissa Milner 29:42
yeah, the threats the threats is really about the human human threats perfect.
Candace Fleming 29:47
And then solution that gives the kind of decides you know, does do just leave the the cheetah escaping from whatever danger or catching his meal? Or do you want to go even a step farther and say, what are some solutions? We, what are some things we can do to help solve this cheetahs problem, right? But I find that kids because you get to write it that way. And they can be descriptive. But true.
Melissa Milner 30:17
I might do this. I think I might do this next year, you know,
Candace Fleming 30:20
and I have had had kids that have written nonfiction that were like, you know, once upon a time, that cheetah lived on that. That's still that is fiction. And what I like that that is that they're allowed to bring in their own writerly voices. And I think we forget about our own author voices when it comes to nonfiction. But they can describe the cheetahs world just like I described Poland, before, the the, you know, the coming of the Nazis that morning, they can describe a morning in Kenya or a morning in South Africa, right? What
Melissa Milner 30:55
I think is hard for kids to get, because most of the nonfiction they read is not narrative nonfiction. So when I share a lot of narrative nonfiction, as a mentor text, and I try to say you can do this in your writing, and but but I think it needs to be even more directly taught. And
Candace Fleming 31:16
I think structured, which is why like, secret formula, because there's a structure there that they can actually, and, but so funny because and then they can even weave in and they can always go back and weave in some extra things that they have learned. You know, like, maybe if you cheetahs hunting, you can say, oh, and then but she does eat a rabbit hop bike. Right. And, you know, she does eat rabbits, but they also eat bla bla bla bla. I mean, if they want to actually throw in other fat, or
Melissa Milner 31:45
they could have little textboxes that have those facts? Yeah, just tell your story. Yeah, absolutely.
Candace Fleming 31:52
Oh, I'm
Melissa Milner 31:53
so I'm so excited that
Candace Fleming 31:54
I discovered is that they have a lot of a lot more fun with it. Because, you know, stories are natural for them. story comes naturally. I mean, it comes naturally to all of us. You know, you go home after work, Melissa, and you tell people what you did today? Oh, you won't believe what happened in the lunch room today. And that's a story, right? So everybody knows how to do it. And kids? I've not had an I've even I've even had high schoolers do this. So it's not just for the weakest ones. I bet that I will force them to start at the bottom, start with the S instead of character, right? Or start with the problem. And then work your way through the other elements that your story, it tiny little story, that's what it will be? Yeah. So
Melissa Milner 32:36
really planning feet, once they've done the research, then they're really planning scenes. And then I think in those scenes, they might realize, oh, I want to bring in this aspect. I haven't researched that yet. And they might have to do more research to see if that's actually something that
Candace Fleming 32:51
then they fill in their research gaps. Right. That is what's good research. Like I was talking to do research to the very, very, very, you know, to the to the ad copy edits will come from my Jones Tom book pretty soon. And I bet there's something I ended up needing to look up one more time, right, I need to make a phone call, right to call an expert. Well,
Melissa Milner 33:12
this is crazy valuable. Is there anything else that you would want teachers to know before I ask the last question,
Candace Fleming 33:21
I think just to fun, really just have fun with it.
Melissa Milner 33:24
I think using your books as a model, like this is how you can tell your nonfiction story. Right?
Candace Fleming 33:32
And I would say even for older kids look at look at honey bee because it's short, right? It's not like it's not novel size. It's short. And every single, every single section is a scene. So here we watch 10, the queen bee. And then next day, we watch her doing BA and the next page we watch her doing guarding the hive, every single one of those scenes. And it actually as you'll see, it follows that character, the character is a Bismillah for right. So it really is just like, yeah, so you see it, it's pretty bright out because it's a picture book. It's the skeleton. What
Melissa Milner 34:11
I find though, is when kids go to research, something, they don't really necessarily want the narrative fiction, they want to be able to pull out the information quickly. So giving kids enough time to say no, I really think you should read this one. Because there's so much information in this. It's just not with headings, you know, you have to actually read it. But so giving kids enough time to be able to read an actual narrative, not just go and find the information they need, right, but to read the narrative nonfiction to get their research.
Candace Fleming 34:47
Yeah, I also really like that if they want to pull those facts fast. That's cool too. But then then you take the next step and hand on that secret formula and now you say okay, now You know, let's write a story based on your facts, right? We're not going to make anything up. But you know, you can tell me that you know, the cheetahs pants in the sun. I know cheetahs pant, I've seen them. But you know, one day as the cheetah laid on the whatever the ground in Kenya painted in the sun, if you want to do that, that's all still nonfiction. Absolutely different way to look at it. What I love that is that they're forced to look at it two ways.
Melissa Milner 35:27
Yes. And some kids just want the headings because they know they can quickly bump up. But also being able to just take a moment, we're not in a rush, read it and pull out. It's a great read. It's a great reading exercise to be able to pull out the facts from more of a narrative style. I think it's amazing. All right. So what are you zooming in on right now with your work? I know you have a book coming out of you starting a new book or
Candace Fleming 35:55
So zooming in, we see what am I got coming? I'm Nick McGraw says out, I have a book about narwhals. Picture Book, like, you know, honey bee, or whatever that will be this fall again, narrative nonfiction. And then I have my Jonestown book, which is called death in the jungle. And then I have started a series for Scholastic, which is called Is it true? And we explore, I don't want to say myths. But those things that we wish were true. So the first one is the Loch Ness monster, and then Bermuda Triangle. But here's what's different, it was not just going to take one sighting of an alien or one sighting of the Loch Ness Monster. So there'll be that narrative story, the truth, all true. But then the second section, it turns to second person, so it becomes you, you are going to get to investigate this mystery of the Loch Ness Monster. So how are you going to sift through evidence, witnesses? Oh, that's amazing, um, to your conclusion, and it actually has the thinking kids toolkit. So it's really what it is, is five tools. But in truth, those are just five pillars of critical thinking. So, and that great, it is pretty fun. And I'm having a lot of fun right now.
Melissa Milner 37:21
So wait, so So you understand you must understand, other than choose your own adventure? There's really no second person in books. So how cool is that? That yeah,
Candace Fleming 37:33
it's just like, yeah, now you, you know, so you have your your case. And then you have your investigation. And then at the end, the end of that second section, after you've looked at what witnesses have said, You've asked questions, right? Ask questions based on your toolbox. thought about it in ways based, not that you want to believe we all want to believe in the Loch Ness Monster. But oh, or what's the difference between evidence and proof that their entire is what's the difference between fact opinion assumption and a lie? So but true and important when we talk with our or when we listen to our witnesses, because most of my witnesses are dead, so we can't talk them. But yeah, but so that's a that's fun. So they get to get in there, and then they get to draw their own conclusion. Then Section three is of the book is what? What do scientists, scholars, geologists, what do they what do they say about the events that the readers looked at? But then since that time, is the myth prevailed? Have we found more information or not have theories changed? I'll give you a hint. The Loch Ness Monster, they think now was a giant eel, because of DNA testing.
Melissa Milner 38:54
I read that somewhere pretty easy. Yeah.
Candace Fleming 38:57
So when we'll do it again, like with the Bermuda Triangle, and then big? Yeah, big foot. Yeah, big foot. So, you know, the whole point, of course, is and this is for like, third, fourth and fifth grade. Right? So it looks like a little novel with a lot of stuff in it. So you have photographs with arrows with questions.
Melissa Milner 39:17
Oh, that's so my kids are going to eat that up.
Candace Fleming 39:20
I hope so. I hope so. And, you know, of course, you know, don't let them know that really, we're just learning how to critically think, how to ask good questions.
Melissa Milner 39:30
I love that. So you're just starting to write those.
Candace Fleming 39:34
I'm just finishing up Nessie right now. Oh, starting another one. Almost immediately. But there, though. Do
Melissa Milner 39:41
you know when that Loch Ness will come out?
Candace Fleming 39:43
I should because I just saw the cover to the book. And it's a great cover. But so the whole series is called? Is it true? You can decide? Alright, so we'll look for that. It should be really soon because I gotta cover. Okay, good. Okay,
Melissa Milner 39:58
I'm gonna guess next year. Oh, All right, well, I'm going to tell my kids that that's coming down the pike. And wait till they see the cover.
Candace Fleming 40:03
They should go. You know, Eric goes, I haven't read that. Nice. I'm gonna read that book till totally. Well,
Melissa Milner 40:11
I'm sure there's so much more you could say, but I don't want to. You've been so nice with your time.
Candace Fleming 40:18
Oh, it was fun. It was really it was a pleasure to sort of break away. This is my month. Seems you know, gonna go to I'm going to fly to LA twice in the space of two weeks. Wow. No, that's, I'm gonna go. I'm going to be on on a show on a&e. I'm going to talk about Amelia Earhart. Oh, that's amazing. I have to get my hair done
Melissa Milner 40:40
a hair did. They don't they have makeup people they do. And hair people, they do that? Well, then you're really gonna get like, the star treatment. So they just reached out to you because they knew that you had written about
Candace Fleming 40:57
her. And they needed an expert. So on
Melissa Milner 41:01
it. That's I know, I can say that. I knew you. Yeah, I don't think
Candace Fleming 41:08
that's going to lead to my my new acting career. But
Melissa Milner 41:12
so thank you so much for taking time out to talk to me.
Candace Fleming 41:15
Oh, I was my pleasure. Thanks, Melissa.
Candace Fleming 41:18
For my blog, transcripts of this episode, and links to any resources mentioned, visit my website at www.theteacheras.com You can reach me on Twitter and Instagram @melissamilner and I hope you check out The Teacher As... Facebook page for episode updates. Thanks for listening. And that's a wrap