Zooming In on Cult Education with Janja Lalich
How to Reach Dr. Lalich
Instagram - Dr. Lalich
Instagram - Lalich Center
Transcript
Melissa Milner 0:09
Welcome to The Teacher As... Podcast. I'm your host, Melissa Milner, a teacher who is painfully curious and very easily inspired. This podcast is ever changing and I hope with each season, you find episodes that speak to you in your work as an educator. This is the fifth season of The Teacher As, and it's exciting to see the growth in how many educators are listening. Episodes are released every other week. If you enjoy The Teacher As... please rate it on Apple podcasts and leave a review; it helps the podcast reach more educators. Thanks for listening.
Janja Lalich 0:41
My name is Janja Lalich and I'm a Professor Emerita of Sociology. I taught for about 20 years at one of the California State Universities. And also back in the 70s and 80s, I was in a cult and once I got out, I did a lot of work to get my brain back together. And then that's when I went to grad school and got my PhD. But I would say for about 35 years now I've been working in the field of cults and high control groups, whatever you want to call them. I've written six books, you know, so I think that's enough about me.
Melissa Milner 1:21
Oh, no, we're gonna get real deep. Well, let's start with like the basics. You know, you know Mark was saying on The Vow he said nobody joins a cult. So usually there's something to suck you in Scientology, same thing with their personality quizzes. Why do people join cults?
Janja Lalich 1:40
Well, first of all, people don't know they're joining a cult, in most cases, what happens is, at some point in your life, you run into something or someone takes you to something that is somehow a little bit intriguing to you. In most cases, the person may be at some kind of crossroads in their life, or at what we might call a vulnerability point, like maybe they just got divorced, or maybe they just moved to a new town or, you know, any number of things. It's raining outside today, your dog just died any of those things. So you're a little bit at that point, kind of hoping to bring life together again. And so I think what most people don't know is that more than two thirds of people are recruited by a friend, a family member or a co worker. So you have someone who's taking you to something who you presumably trust, and they may not tell you exactly what you're going to but you kind of you either go along with it. Because your coworker has been bugging you so many times to go to this thing you say finally good, I'll go or whatever.
Janja Lalich 2:50
When you go to that first thing, cults do what we call love bombing, where the at whatever event it is, or might be the target the new people, and the recruiters will basically love bomb you in the sense that they'll make you feel really welcome. They'll make you feel like you're really special. They'll tell you how, depending on again, on the group, how beautiful you are, or how intelligent you are, or whatever it might be. And because they've been so nice to you, when they invite you to come back again, you've you feel obligated to say yes, because they've been so nice to you. And this is kind of one of the basic influence principles, right. So all they need to do is get you to a few things. And it may be something you went to on your own, you know, a retreat, some kind of seminar, whatever. And, you know, cult recruiters are really good at what they do. So, in the beginning, of course, you don't know what the bottom line is, you're not really playing with a full deck. And you think you found something just wonderful. And you think this is really great. You know, all of us are, first of all, we're social animals, we've have this innate need to belong to have a family or whatever you want to call it. And people are always looking for a framework, you know, for understanding the world, especially today, the world is so complex and so much is going on. So here's here's an organization or a leader or guru, whatever, who's going to give you all the answers, right, tell you what's going on in the world and where you fit in and how you can make change.
Janja Lalich 4:28
And in most cases, most people ask me all the time, is there a common denominator? You know, to who joins? Is it weak people? Is it stupid, right? No, the common denominator is idealism, right? It's people who want a better life or want to save the world. They want to make change in the world or they might want to make more money. You know, whatever it is, they come into it idealistic, thinking that they've found the answer to something. And from there, the cult will take you into its indoctrination program and this is where the changes start happening. So, yeah, people, people, cults have been around forever, they will be around forever. There are more today than ever befo,re more kinds of cults, and certainly now we're dealing with the internet based cults, which is a whole new thing for us.
Melissa Milner 5:23
Wow. I'm going to want to hear more about that. But if you're comfortable sharing with the listeners, which cult were you in?
Janja Lalich 5:30
I was in a left wing, political cults called the Democratic Workers Party and we were headquartered in San Francisco. I was 30 when I joined. So I wasn't a kid, I had already been to college. I was a Fulbright Scholar, I had lived and traveled in Europe. I mean, I was not some naive kid. I was new in town. I had just moved to San Francisco from living on an island for four years off of Spain. And, you know, I was always interested in social change and social equality and so this seemed like, I ran into these people seemed like they were serious, like they knew what they were doing. And you know, they got me.
Melissa Milner 6:12
So the love bombing, everything you just described that happened.
Janja Lalich 6:16
That happened? Absolutely.
Melissa Milner 6:18
Did it turn into a, you know, us versus them? Did they tell you not to listen to your family, or...
Janja Lalich 6:24
We were very, in the beginning, we were underground, which meant that no one was supposed to know we existed, right. And as soon as we joined, we were told to take on new names, you know, just first name. So my name was Emma. I was Comrade Emma. And no one, no one in the group was supposed to know your real name, or who you were. So you never could talk about your background. And you know, with memories, if you don't bring them up every now and then they fade away. Right?
Melissa Milner 6:24
Wow.
Janja Lalich 6:24
And we worked 20 hour days, seven days a week, no time off. Every now and then someone did get permission to go home. But that was usually the wealthy people who could go get money from their family, or bring back a new van or something like that. And we were, you know, we were super active in the political realm in the Bay Area. And then we had what we called stations in other parts of the country. But it was very strict. And basically, we spent, you know, probably 80% of our time sitting around in a circle and criticizing each other. Because we modeled ourselves after Chairman Mao of China. And Mao believed and strongly pushed criticism, self criticism, in his programs of changing people. First his army and then the people of China. So criticism, self criticism was a process whereby you were supposedly getting rid of all your bourgeois tendencies. So it didn't matter. For example, I was a working class kid, I didn't, I didn't have I didn't grow up, even middle class, put myself through school, etc. But just living in the society meant you had these bourgeois tendencies. So, you know, somebody would get criticized for saying the wrong thing to somebody, or they would make up crimes, and we would put people on trial. And it was very, very harsh. It was very harsh, and we were worn out, you know, that kind of exhaustion. And sleep deprivation is very common in cults, because it basically keeps you from using your critical thinking abilities. And after a while, you don't have any critical thinking abilities. Yeah, it was a rough road for 10 years.
Melissa Milner 8:35
Wow. When you think about how you got out? Is that how you figured out? Clearly you decided that's what you wanted to focus on as your the teaching and education. But, you know, did you learn anything from you getting out that helps you getting other people out?
Janja Lalich 8:55
Well, yeah, I think I think so. I mean, I wanted to get out for five years, and I couldn't, I couldn't figure out how to do it. I mean, the door was there, but I could not walk through it. I was terrified. I was broke. I had a broken down car. I knew they'd come after me because I was in the inner circle. And I knew a lot. So, oddly enough, our group finally had our revolution. And we overthrew our leader as we dissolved the organization. So we all got out.
Melissa Milner 9:23
Oh, wow!
Janja Lalich 9:24
Yeah. So there were about 120 of us who got out and then I moved to New York. And luckily, I found a very good therapist. But one of the things that that I do say that I think helps people understand at least help survivors is that everybody in a cult even even the I think even the true believers like I was unless they're also a psychopath, and we want to become the leader. But everybody in a cult has doubt... you have these doubts. You think something's not quite right or whatever, or something happens. You go whoa, but you have no way to express those doubts, right? Because there's a code of silence. So I have this metaphor of you have this shelf in the back of your head, and you store all these things on the back of your head. And one day, one thing too much happens and the shelf breaks. Now, when the shelf breaks, you don't necessarily leave at that moment, you don't even necessarily think, oh my god, this is a cult, but you know that something's wrong. And you know that maybe this isn't good for you. And then, again, depending on the circumstances, hopefully you make a plan and find a way to work your way out.
Melissa Milner 10:36
Yeah, I know, when I was in a certain MLM. I had those feelings and I wanted to talk about to my upline, and it was shut down right away. Then I wanted to talk to the people that were in my you know, my upline, and we were told not to talk to people that were also in the, it was really called to, like everything I've heard about cults from you, from all that. It's unbelievable.
Janja Lalich 11:02
Yeah. No, and it's, I think, one of the, well, certainly one of the longest living, but also, you know, it does have a belief system you don't think all MLMs do but the, you know, sort of America, apple pie, American flag, you know, sort of a very right wing philosophy that you were expected to adopt and family broken up if one spouse wasn't into it. I mean, it's a very controlling organization. You know, there were there was just a big lawsuit with Herbalife and they just settled, they just settled the case for I just got the email about it, because originally I was supposed to be expert witness in the case. Yeah. So there's a lot of issues with the multilevel marketing stuff.
Melissa Milner 11:48
To move on... as you as an educator, are you still a professor? Or are you just doing mostly the, you know, consultant work and the stuff through your center?
Janja Lalich 12:00
I consider myself an educator. One of my goals has always been to educate the public about cults and to destigmatize cult members and former cult members because there still is stigma. I mean, even I get asked, you know, isn't it stupid, crazy, lazy people getting cults? And I'm like, Hello. So I do education in that way. And, and through my books, I mean, I have five books, my book, Take Back Your Life, which was my first book, which originally was called Captive Hearts, Captive Minds came out, I think, in 93, or 94. Been selling ever since. And I just released the new third edition of Take Back Your Life dated, revised a whole new section on the troubled teen industry, which are those awful camps.
Melissa Milner 12:48
Yeah.
Janja Lalich 12:48
So through my books, I consider myself still an educator. And then I do I do a fair amount of expert witness work, which I love, because I feel like at least we're bringing some justice for some people. And those cases are all over the country and all kinds. And, you know, I even worked for on the side of defending, you know, someone, for example, was told to it was in a cult told to go shoot someone. And so now they're going to prison.
Melissa Milner 13:16
Right.
Janja Lalich 13:17
I get hired to try to explain...
Melissa Milner 13:19
Yeah, they weren't in their right mind.
Janja Lalich 13:21
They wouldn't have done that under any other circumstance. And hopefully, we can at least get a reduced sentence. So I do that. And then I last year, or the year before, I can't even remember I started the nonprofit, because I'm 78 years old. And I want to make sure there's some kind of legacy I have done an enormous amount of writing and as you know, documentaries, the podcasts, everything. I wanted to make sure that lived on after me that it didn't just disappear when I when my ashes got thrown in the Mediterranean. So...
Melissa Milner 13:53
I think that's a very smart thing to do. Because your work's so important.
Janja Lalich 13:58
Yeah. So through the nonprofit, you know, last year we did a lot of we did survivor discussion groups and some courses and things. Right now we're taking a break, and we're kind of reformulating what we want it to be for this year. But the nonprofit's still there. It's called the Lalich Center on Cults and Coercion. I still do consultations, both with survivors and with families. I'm going to start doing less of that just because I am getting a little bit tired. Ya' know.
Melissa Milner 14:31
You're a busy, busy person.
Janja Lalich 14:32
I'm a super busy person. And so you know, everybody's like, come on, Janja. And you're you're almost 79 It's time to retire. It's very difficult to think about doing that because there just aren't that many people in this field.
Melissa Milner 14:44
I was just gonna say, you know, how do we get 20 to 80 Janjas? You know, it's the same with Robert FitzPatrick like how can we get a whole bunch more of you? How can we clone you but at the center, I think the center has a lot to do with that. Plus all the podcasts and all everything you know about cults.
Janja Lalich 15:04
Yeah, and one thing that I am doing will do this year again is we've taught some courses for therapists, because most therapists just don't have a clue of how to work with a cult survivor. Or even they may have a client not even realize they are a cult survivor or may be in a cult.
Melissa Milner 15:22
Yes, I know, Leah Remini talks about police, the police force, you know, they come into a situation either if it's just a relationship with coercive control, or if it's a cult situation. And they they aren't trained to notice. And yeah.
Janja Lalich 15:39
I really like to model ourselves after the human trafficking movement, because they have really done a great job. They've educated police across the country, educated judges, they've educated flight attendants.
Melissa Milner 15:54
Oh, yes, that makes sense. Yeah.
Janja Lalich 15:57
They've educated first responders like EMT people and stuff. So yes, we need to do that kind of broad based education. It's really difficult because people think cults and they think religion, and it really has nothing to do with religion. But you know, in our country, you can't touch religion with a 10 foot pole. So this is what comes up in legal cases. You know, the courts don't want to touch it. It's religion it's babababa. So, that's why I think the push now there, we do have a coalition of organizations working on getting the concept of coercion understood in the courts, and in the legal system. And in law enforcement.
Melissa Milner 16:36
Yeah, it's so important. I already mentioned Laura Richards, in another interview I just did, but her work on coercive control is amazing. And that's over in London, it's like, can you come here and do that? Because she's got laws passed in London.
Janja Lalich 16:52
And they have, they have, I think, in Australia, and one other place, but we're way, way behind on that. So together all the organizations and we meet monthly and just share what we're doing and see who can help somebody else. And we've got everybody from kids who were adopted, who went into really bad placements. You know, the TTI people, the I mean, it's just a really broad range, which turns up and, you know, I mean, I can I can go to court and testify in a case and never even use the word cult. Right.
Melissa Milner 17:25
Right.
Janja Lalich 17:25
So, that's, that's where we need to get to because it's such a buzzword. It really is. Yeah, I'm not sure why we call a gang gang. So let's call a cult, a cult. But you know, no, it's all this suppose. And religion tie in which, you know, I was in a cult had nothing to do with religion.
Melissa Milner 17:42
Exactly. Well, how do teachers see the red flags that maybe their students are getting sucked into something? And then if they do see it, what can they do?
Janja Lalich 17:54
Yeah, that's a tough one. Because I know, when I was at Chico State, we used to try to, you know, or I would try to get into the high schools, and they wouldn't let me in. I mean, they would didn't want to, again, because they're afraid you're gonna talk about somebody's religion and offend them. And I'm like, I don't I don't talk about religion, you know. So it's really difficult. We really need, you know, some kind of broad based program of education about cults in high school in college.
Janja Lalich 18:26
Yeah.
Janja Lalich 18:27
I had a course on cults. That was, I mean, always overflowing. In the 20 years, I got to teach it. I think three times. Because we were at as many departments are, we were short staffed, we had to make sure we covered the requirements and the basic courses. And so there just wasn't enough opportunity to take a slot and say, let Janja do her cults course, when I did the cults course, it was fascinating, and the students loved it. And that's and some students then came up to me and told me about their cult experiences, one had just left a religious cult in the area. Other ones, you know, maybe knew someone or some of the older students might have had a relative, but it was I love teaching that course.
Melissa Milner 19:23
So is that cults course... Did you take that and put it into book form? Is that sort of
Janja Lalich 19:29
No, I had already written my books by then. Yeah, I've written not all of them to my book escaping utopia, which is about people growing up in cults. That one I did at the university. I did the research on a sabbatical and then published while I was teaching, and my book Bounded Choice, got published. Just as I started teaching, it was my dissertation. And but turned to user friendly language. So University of California Press published that that came out in 2004. I was already teaching then.
Melissa Milner 20:05
You know, I talked to Robert FitzPatrick and then we ended up doing a ten part educational podcast together. Oh, so if you have a course, we could take it one episode at a time.
Janja Lalich 20:18
Oh, I do I could use my old PowerPoint for my courses.
Melissa Milner 20:21
Ready to go. And then it could be a podcast, and we could put the podcast up on your website. So we'll talk?
Janja Lalich 20:27
Yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah, find ways to, you know, spread it out a little, ya' know.
Melissa Milner 20:34
Well you want to leave that legacy. And if you can leave a ten part. I don't know how many episodes it would take, but that will always be there. And we'll all you know, it's something to that's a legacy in itself. So...
Janja Lalich 20:47
Yeah, because that's, that's the kind of thing I need to you know, that I've been thinking about, like, how can I get this stuff out there. I just came across, I was futzing around on my computer one day. And I came across all these articles I've written over the years. Essays and articles, most of them not published, a lot of it was for grad school. Like I have this incredible analysis of the New Age Movement, all these things, a whole paper on charisma, all this stuff that and I, I mean, you know, 40, 50 things, and I'm like, Oh, my God, I have to get this out to the world before I die, right.
Melissa Milner 21:26
I mean, and then there's the whole narcissism, I mean,
Janja Lalich 21:29
Oh, yeah. And so that's where Dr. Ramani comes in.
Melissa Milner 21:33
She's amazing.
Janja Lalich 21:33
I'm very close with her. Yeah. I've been on her stuff a few times. She has a new, she's fantastic. And we just click. I mean, we can we were on the we did a Zoom the other day that was going to be a promo for her new book. And yeah. I mean, we can just talk for hours like, because there's so much interlocking, you know?
Melissa Milner 21:53
Absolutely.
Janja Lalich 21:54
Because almost every cult leader is a narcissist of some sort may not be lignan type, but many of them are the malignant type.
Melissa Milner 22:02
Yes.
Janja Lalich 22:03
Definitely. narcissists. Yeah.
Melissa Milner 22:05
And you would love who I just talked to. Do you know who? Dr. Ann Burgess is?
Janja Lalich 22:09
No.
Melissa Milner 22:10
She's the one who helped the FBI investigators organize their information about serial killers.
Janja Lalich 22:17
Oh.
Melissa Milner 22:17
All about control. Like, you know that figuring out what, what those serial killers were thinking.
Janja Lalich 22:24
Ann Bur?
Melissa Milner 22:24
Dr. Ann Burgess. Yeah, so I just interviewed her last week. I'm like, the two of you like would probably be like, boom, you know, because it's it again, there's so many intersecting... just the whole idea of control.
Janja Lalich 22:38
I always wanted to be an FBI profiler in my other life.
Melissa Milner 22:44
Exactly. And she's, she's unbelievable. She's like, 82. And she's like a spitfire. She's amazing.
Janja Lalich 22:51
So I should look into your podcasts.
Melissa Milner 22:53
Yeah. So that's coming out on the 28th.
Janja Lalich 22:56
Oh ok
Melissa Milner 22:57
Of January. I just interviewed her. Yeah. But that's a good one. I also, again, Robert FitzPatrick I've had on my and then we did Ponzinomics 101. And then um, yeah, I've had a few different influential, interesting people. I just, I, you know, I don't do like just teaching I, I go with what I'm interested in and then I make parallels that's why it's called The Teacher As... so the teacher as whatever profession or whatever, but to fit to wrap up at you were on the Seduced about NIXVM the Seduced, I believe it's on Starz?
Janja Lalich 23:38
It was originally on Starz. I think now, maybe it's on Hulu. It's somewhere, right. But...
Melissa Milner 23:45
Yeah, with India Oxenberg.
Janja Lalich 23:48
Cecilia Peck was the director.
Melissa Milner 23:50
Okay.
Janja Lalich 23:51
And she is Gregory pecks daughter, which was amazing.
Melissa Milner 23:55
Unbelievable.
Janja Lalich 23:56
The first time I went that we filmed most of Seduced in her house, and the first time there like, Oh, my God, you know, there's his Oscars and all this Gregory Peck memorabilia. And I'm like, Oh, my God, you're Gregory Peck's daughter. And when I first started talking to her, I didn't know I mean, she had this last name Peck. I never thought right. But she's so wonderful. She's just the most down to earth wonderful person.
Melissa Milner 24:20
Well, she's very talented. It was very, a very good documentary. Very well done.
Janja Lalich 24:24
And the new one...
Melissa Milner 24:25
And then the Escaping Twin Flames, which is absolutely insane. When you you know when you watch him for, I mean, she's already a mess. But when you watch him, he just he does the whole love, love, love and then like on a dime, right? It's like whoa,
Janja Lalich 24:42
And you see him? You see him morph over time he gets worse and you know, which is what happens with cult leaders. It's like the more you get away with the more they're pull. Right and and you just saw how he just became this monster. And she faded more and more into the background.
Melissa Milner 24:58
Yes, she I think she was like, what have I gotten myself into?
Janja Lalich 25:02
Well, I don't know. She actually got it started. So I don't know about that. But yeah, yeah, poor child. I mean, you know, and we've done everything called CPS called local, called FBI. Nothing, you know, it's like, he says right there, baby grace is only gonna have sex with God. And I'm God. I mean, what what is he telling us? Like, let's get real people.
Melissa Milner 25:24
Horrible, horrible.
Janja Lalich 25:26
You know, I'm, I'm actually going to Michigan in February with Keely, who's who was kind of the main story. And there's, there's something called the National Writers Series. And this woman brings big authors and, and has it in the Opera House and it's supposed to be really beautiful. And it's also on Zoom. And it's in the town right next door, where Jeff and Shaleia live. And I'm like, Well, I hope you got security. Because, you know, I thought Keely was very brave. She's like, Yeah, I'll come. So anyway, we're going to be doing that in mid February.
Melissa Milner 25:59
Well, the stuff you're doing is amazing. I mean, so you're zooming in on that right now, the zooming in, because I do have a little segment of what you're zooming in right now. So you're zooming in on that. You're gonna be zooming in, hopefully on a podcast opportunity.
Janja Lalich 26:17
I'm writing my memoir.
Melissa Milner 26:19
Oh, yay. Oh, really.
Janja Lalich 26:21
Which has been really a challenge. I mean, I started it during the pandemic is, you know, when I retired from the University in 2019, and I really thought I was retiring. And I moved here to the Bay Area, San Francisco, you know, across the bridge in San Francisco in this lovely, lovely, lovely senior community. It's like living in a national forest. It's just gorgeous. But I was retiring, well, then the pandemic. And so I started writing my memoir, and then the pandemic hit. And then my emails went crazy, because everybody was falling down these rabbit holes, right? And all these suddenly emailing me. And I have never been busier in my life.
Melissa Milner 26:56
I bet.
Janja Lalich 26:57
And in between, I'm trying to write a memoir, which you know, you can't do it half an hour at a time. But it'll, I'm hoping it'll get done in the next couple of months. It's close. I just have to beef it up a little.
Melissa Milner 27:11
Yeah, that's great. Do you have like, like the publishing or the end date? Are you getting it to an editor to have it?
Janja Lalich 27:19
No, I'm actually, I'm gonna publish it through the Lalich Center.
Melissa Milner 27:23
Oh, good.
Janja Lalich 27:23
Because we are now a publisher, we got all the bells and whistles. And we just published the new edition of Take Back Your Life because that publisher retired, and gave me the rights back.
Melissa Milner 27:35
Oh, wow.
Janja Lalich 27:36
And I thought, rather than spend a year trying to find a publisher, I'm just gonna do it from the Lalich Center. And then I've thought the same thing about my memoir. I mean, the publishing industry is so changed, and it's so bizarre to me, you know, I mean, unless you're Paris Hilton, or Danielle Steele, or Stephen King, they don't want to know from you.
Melissa Milner 27:55
Right.
Janja Lalich 27:56
So I figure, I'll publish it through the Knowledge Center, I'm going to put in some photos, I found the photos and stuff. And then, you know, I think I have a pretty large following. Just...
Melissa Milner 28:08
Yes, you do.
Janja Lalich 28:08
I mean, even with a regular publisher, you have to do your own promo. They don't pay for anything. You know, so...
Melissa Milner 28:15
Really, really?
Janja Lalich 28:16
Very little. I mean, unless you're big, they send you on a tour, but no, okay. If they give you an advance, which not every publisher does, you have to earn back the event, they have to earn back the advance through your royalties. So if your book doesn't sell, and if they gave you say, $5000 dollars, and your book doesn't sell enough, through royalties, then you owe them that money.
Melissa Milner 28:39
Wow.
Janja Lalich 28:40
And the royalties from a regular publisher, you get 10% of the wholesale price. They sell the book, usually at 50, or 60% off to the distributors. So a $20 book might be selling for $7. Yeah, and get 10% of $7. So you're getting 70 cents a book. No, that's how it works. So everyone thinks oh, oh, Dr. Janja she has six books. She must be so rich. I'm lucky if I get a check for $200 a year.
Melissa Milner 29:11
That's unbelievable.
Janja Lalich 29:12
Yeah, that's how it works.
Melissa Milner 29:14
And when you do totally different subjects when you do the documentaries, do you get paid to do those?
Janja Lalich 29:19
No, you can't it's a standard okay sort of policy because otherwise people could say you're telling them what they want to hear because yeah, yeah for any any interviews anything you don't get paid? I mean, they may pay your expenses like you know, I started flying to LA or whatever, put you up but they can't give you any kind of fee. No.
Melissa Milner 29:40
Yeah. Well, I Is there anything else you think educators should know about cults, coercion?
Janja Lalich 29:45
Well educators should teach about cults. I would find a way to teach about cults in every course I taught, whether it was Women, Work and Family, Contemporary Families, Political Sociology, whatever the name of the course was I always had a segment on cults because it fits into every aspect of our society.
Melissa Milner 30:05
Yeah.
Melissa Milner 30:06
You know, I mean today all the business calls all those cults, all those bloody management leadership, you know, like that's NXIVM started out to be coaches, coaching coaches.
Janja Lalich 30:17
Yeah. Coach, oh my god. It's everywhere. So people can find a way to insert it into their course in some way. And at least give, you know, I have a ton of handouts and things on my website, my janjalalich.com website.
Janja Lalich 30:35
Okay. And people can, you know, give resources to their class that even if it's just a reading list, or, you know, I have a little quiz, you know, do you think you would join a cult? And you answer these questions, little thing... checklists.
Melissa Milner 30:50
I'm gonna put that and the lalich.org on the on this episode's web page. Yes. It's just fantastic. I could talk to you for hours, and hopefully I will if end up partnering together. We'll see. We'll see.
Janja Lalich 31:06
Yeah.
Melissa Milner 31:07
Yeah, but thank you so much for taking the time out.
Janja Lalich 31:10
Thank you for inviting me. And you know, we love teachers.
Melissa Milner 31:14
Woo!
Melissa Milner 31:16
For my blog, transcripts of this episode, and links to any resources mentioned, visit my website at www.theteacheras.com. You can reach me on Twitter and Instagram @melissabmilner and I hope you check out The Teacher As... Facebook page for episode updates. Thanks for listening. And that's a wrap.