Episode 61: Zooming In on MLMs Part 3

Welcome to The Teacher As...podcast. I'm your host Melissa Milner, a teacher who is painfully curious and very easily inspired. In this third season, I explore my interests as the main focus of the episodes. If you have listened to seasons one and two, first of all, thank you. Second of all, this season will be a little different. It will still be centered around interesting topics and their connections to education. I'll continue to have interview episodes, maybe a Top Ten episode here and there since they are very popular, but also some episodes will be just me sharing about a topic. Similar to my Podcasting the Students episodes from season two. New episodes come out every other week. If you enjoy the podcast, please share it with anyone you think would benefit from listening. It really helps the podcast grow. Thank you for supporting The Teacher As... I hope you enjoy season three.

Melissa Milner 1:07

This episode is part three of my Zooming in on MLM series. I have a strong feeling that there will be more MLM episodes in this podcast's future. But for now, I am moving on after this episode to some other education related topics. Talking to professionals in education about MLMs was how I wanted to wrap up this three part series. I'll be sharing clips from my chats with Dave Vaughan and Sarah Haidar. Dave is currently living in Zhubei, Taiwan, and he currently teaches fifth, sixth and eighth grade ELA. Dave has an economics background, which comes in handy when talking about MLMs, for sure. He's passionate about spreading the antiMLM message, and has some creative ideas about how we can use literature to teach about high-control groups. Sarah is a school counselor and former music educator who shares her important message of not normalizing MLMs especially in our public schools. Dave and Sarah are so inspiring. And I recommend following them on Twitter if you're interested in more antiMLM content. I will share their Twitter handles at the end of the episode. And they'll be available on the episode page as well. So let's get started with Dave. Due to circumstances beyond his control, he had to be on this Zoom recording in a busy convenience store. I do apologize for the sound issues. But what Dave has to say is well worth it. First, I asked if he could introduce himself to The Teacher As... listeners.

Dave Vaughan 2:43

Hello, my name is Dave Vaughn and I am a teacher in Taiwan. I work at a private school in the middle school English Language Arts program. I'm teaching grades five, six, and eight currently. And I've also taught grade seven as well. I am currently in this podcast a convenience store. So you're going to hear some chimes in the background. You might hear some people speaking... it won't be in English. But hopefully it will be an interesting experience as you're listening. I'm actually originally from Canada, and I took a strange route to education. I was in high school and a lot of my... actually the secretaries at my school constantly were telling me you should be a teacher. And I was like, I don't... I don't think that that's really my calling. I want to try some other things. So I went into economics originally. And about three years into that program, I was like this doesn't really feel like the right fit for me, so I started taking some chemistry courses as well. I ended up finishing with a chemistry minor and economics honors major. And then from there, I stayed. I worked in education. Somewhat tangentially, I was working in a residence building as a visiting site manager there for three years. Going through like leadership development programs, and that sort of thing working with students in that capacity. And then I returned to schooling, did a master's program. And following that I was still like, I'm not I'm not going to be a spokesperson for economics. I don't feel like I'm someone who can appear on the nightly news and be able to give a rundown of these sorts of things so pursuing a PhD or anything like that was sort of out of the question for me, but I was still really interested in supporting students. I was a TA during my time in my master's program, so I wanted to pursue that avenue. It eventually amounted to me traveling to China and working there.

Melissa Milner 4:43

Next, I asked Dave about his personal story with MLM and what caused him to become antiMLM.

Dave Vaughan 4:51

I had a significant other that I was dating at the time, and they were involved in a company and at first it seemed rather innocent, right? It's introduced as something that is rather innocuous. It's not going to harm their life at all. That's certainly not the feeling that I got when they were talking about it. They just mentioned it was a shopping portal that they had managed. And they were getting other businesses that are around Taiwan to make use of this shopping portal. And it allowed people to shop online for their services. And I thought, like, hey, that's really cool for someone to be involved in that. They were also working at an air b&b at the time that they were talking about, I want to transition my life to be working this full time. And like being their partner at the time, I was thinking like, oh, I want to be able to support this. So when my school needed to buy new Apple TV products, I was thinking well, why don't I try to make it work so I buy through this system. But it was strange, it sort of rose a red flag for me, because when I asked for that support and put in my request, like, I don't know how the shipping is really going to work, can you give me a hand with this? There wasn't a lot of support, getting me to sort of help them out. So I'm like, if I'm the person buying these products, I would think that he would be enthusiastic about offering the support, but it seemed like that wasn't really the the main idea of what was going on with the business. So with this MLM, there's two tiers, like you can buy, like, natural products that you would find in a regular marketplace, and then exclusive products at the MLM brand. So those natural products, they would find outside the MLM, were not worth as much within the MLM space as the exclusive products. So I think for them, it was just like, it's not really worth it for me to go through the trouble of explaining how to order these things, the kickback for them wasn't that large. So I didn't, I didn't really get that support. But I mean, at the time, I didn't really understand that, I think I think it was just a regular sales person's job, right? I would expect, there would be a little bit more support, but because of the incentive system in an MLM that just wasn't there. After that breakup, I was just sort of flummoxed, in terms of, like, did I do something wrong? It just sort of ended all of a sudden. And it wasn't really those aspects of the selling that really affected our relationship. It's sort of that relationship that an individual has with their upline and the behaviors that are encouraged by the upline to sort of cut out anything that is distracting someone from the business. If you're not investing yourself and follow the training seminars and workshops, and being able to get out there at coffee shops and be able to find people that might be interested in the business, you're not really building the business correctly, which means that you're never going to find the success. There is one way that you can build this business and if you're not following that one way, then you're doing it all wrong. They even were talking about distancing themselves from their family. So it wasn't really the breakup for me that really sort of rose up concern it was when they started detaching themselves from their own family, and they were living with their family at the time, because in Taiwan, it's natural for someone to be 40 years old and still live with their parents. Right? You live in these four or five storey houses there are more narrow than a typical home in the US. But they're four or five stories high, and someone from a generation will occupy one floor and then you'll have your brothers or sisters living with their spouse on another floor. So it would be natural for you to to be very connected to your parents, but they were considering no longer speaking with their parents that they weren't gonna support them in their business. And that sort of really rose my concern because I mean, in this country, it's very, it's very uncommon for someone to sort of go to that extent. Right? They just believe that if they didn't commit themselves further to this business, they couldn't help more people, which is how they frame it in their mind, right? They don't look at it as like, I can't scam more people they look at as I can't help more people.

Melissa Milner 8:58

I can only speak for myself that in the beginning of my experience with Amway. I was excited to share the business. I wanted not just to help myself, but others as well. I had an upline who had retired from her full time job. And I saw their upline who were on their way to be diamonds at the time. Once I became disillusioned, I stopped sharing the plan and eventually quit. If you want to hear my personal story in more detail, check out episode 60 of The Teacher As... So, I was curious to hear how Dave talks to people who are in MLMs. How does he try to help and support them without supporting the MLM itself?

Dave Vaughan 9:42

I do recommend Steven Hassan. He does have something called the Strategic Interactive Approach. And this is an approach that he recommends. It's just an inquisitive approach, right? You're just sort of investigating what makes someone believe what they do. So you... you approach with curiosity. You don't approach to challenge or judge someone, and you really are just seeking to understand what is leading them to believe what they believe. And then just walk away from that conversation, not necessarily having accomplished anything. But just for the sole purpose of trying to better understand where they are. I think, for me, I was like, I don't want to get too close to this thing, because I'm afraid I'm going to get sucked in. Like there is this belief that like, I'm going to get brainwashed too, and I'm going to want to do this, but it doesn't actually work that way. Seems like if you're approaching a situation, and you're sort of clear of mind, and you're skeptical, and your critical thinking is on sort of full blast, it's very difficult for you to get pulled into anything that you don't want to do. So I mean, I encourage anyone who's interested in knowing more about how do you support someone that you know, that might be involved in these to have a look at the Strategic Interactive Approach, or there's other systems that you can do just to sort of help apply some of those second order, thinking questions that are going to help you and that other person sort of reestablish that relationship that might be strained in that capacity of being involved in mind control.

Melissa Milner 11:12

Steve Hassan's name is mentioned in just about every podcast about MLMs, and cults, he has been a guest on pretty much all of them. He was also in Leah Remini, Scientology Aftermath show and in the Seduced documentary about the NIXVM cult. There are links to his work on the Episode 61 page of The Teacher As... website. Back to Dave, I was most curious to hear how Dave has begun to incorporate his antiMLM passion into his work with middle school students. Because of the sound issues. I'll explain that Dave talks about the very popular novel Holes by Louis Sachar. That's S-A-C-H-A-R , which was eventually adapted for film.

Dave Vaughan 11:56

One aspect of that... the pyramid scheme area of knowledge, it's not officially pyramid schemes, we didn't look into it explicitly. But we did do a class novel study of Holes by Louis Sachar. I wanted to integrate some aspects of the novel study by synthesizing information from elsewhere. And it seemed like a space to do so because at Camp Green Lake, Tent D, which was what the main character was involved in, the group had sort of demonstrated some... some tendencies that were consistent with high control groups. So I had some students evaluate whether or not the Tents Council, the camp that Stanley was attending was a high control group and and Stanley being able to break free from that was sort of what allowed the character to develop and grow and, and being involved in that organization that sort of inhibited his ability to grow as a character. They were looking at, like the hierarchical structure of the group, how there were dominant players, in terms of controlling the information that people understood. The ritualistic practices of spitting in the hole when they had finished for the day. So they were just sort of examining those aspects as it related to to some of the material that was available, and examining high control groups. So, it was there as as an activity to examine it. And there was a discussion that was associated with it. We didn't specifically talk about pyramid schemes, but it didn't lend itself for at least a conversation. To sort of examined the the integrity of some of these groups that people get involved in and how how it can be freeing for characters, provided they have the support. So in Stanley's case, he had the support of Zero, another character in the book that helped him be able to grow outside of that group. It's just that ability to start questioning things that you're seeing around you, and not that it needs to be done all the time. Like we did have this discussion, like, you can be part of a sports team, right? And, and sometimes, you are really engaged in that sports team, and you have some people that you're following in terms of wearing makeup on your face and dressing yourself all up, right? At the end of the day, that's not really going to harm your life, provided that you have that sort of release from that group and there's no real sort of connection to it. They... within the module that we talked about, there's a continuum of influence that you can be under. So whether or not it's authoritative and really sort of regulating your entire life or if you have that freedom, and you have that escape, you have that release from the organization. And I think with an MLM, it doesn't really allow you that release. The sunk cost fallacy, right, where you already invent invested your money into something, it's... you imagine that it costs you too much to leave, but in fact that you're just losing more money, the more that you're you're invested in, right? It's not going to offer you the return that you expect. It is better to cut your ties and walk away. But instead, these organizations often employ you like, Oh, you're not doing it, right, cut your social ties outside of this organization, so you can dedicate more time to this. So they're really sort of challenging that conscience that you're developing of like, maybe it's time to get out of this. They're there. And it's not just one person, right? It's the entire group that you've sort of established social connection with that sort of saying that, well, if you leave, you're just giving up on everything that you've built here, how could you do something like that? Did you not...and this is where the conversation of your why when you originally get involved, they want to understand what really makes you want to do this project. That gets turned against you as a weapon to be like, "Are you sure you want to leave, you're turning your back on wanting to give your parents this trip, or wanting to be able to retire your spouse or being able to establish a family," like all of these things that that might have been, the reason why you got involved is now being used against you when you're thinking about leaving.

Dave Vaughan 16:13

I was teaching AP Psychology. That's another area that this can kind of come in. So we talked about attribution error. That's the concept where you often as an individual, you will look to others and you will sort of blame the other person as opposed to their environment. But when you're talking about yourself, you blame the environment for things as opposed to putting the blame on on yourself. So, in the instance that someone does something wrong, you think that they're, they're an idiot, or they're stupid, or, or whatever. But when you do something wrong, you're like, ah, it was that situation that had taken place around me. That's why I did that wrong. It just gets worse when you're in these groups, right? Because then you have everyone else that's reinforcing that idea.

Melissa Milner 16:59

Dave Vaughan is definitely an educator to follow. I'm so glad that he took time out to share his innovative teaching with us. Onto my second guest, Sarah Haidar. I'm sad to say that something went wrong with my laptop for this recording. And in the last few minutes of my chat with Sarah, we're kind of like warped (demonstrates slow, warped sounding speech). Yeah, it was pretty upsetting when I listened back. Luckily, the main points of our chat were in the beginning of our recording. I've never had an episode with so many technical issues, including my laptop completely dying. But that's maybe for another podcast. I started my chat with Sarah, the same way I started my chat with Dave. I asked her to introduce herself to The Teacher As... listeners and to share her personal MLM story.

Sarah Haidar 17:53

I'm Sarah, I am a school counselor at the elementary level, and I was recently for the past six years an elementary music teacher. I do have experience working in all levels. I have taught high school marching band. I've done what's it called? I've done my counseling practicum in high school as well. So I got to work with a lot of high school kids, as well as I spent some time being a middle school band director. I was involved in two MLMs one very seriously, right out of high school. And part of the reason why I am so outspoken and passionate is because I was targeted as someone right out of high school, and this was for Cutco knives. This was back in 2009, things were a little different. I also had done some research and found that they had changed their name recently, which is why I when I looked them up in 2009, I didn't really find much about the company. But then when I looked them up recently, under their old name, I found much more information. So yes, they did change their name. They're under Vector Marketing right now. But they did have another name called Alcora that was back before 2009. Anyways, so I got what essentially was a job interview in the mail. And it seemed like a good idea at the time because I was in that time of just graduating high school. I knew I was about to leave and go to college in two months and I wanted something so I could make money as well as get some just real world experience. I had just graduated. I really hadn't had much real work experience other than a short stint at Dairy Queen. So I wanted something that was more legit, legitimate, and I anyways, so I ended up going to this job interview that was advertised on this letter with my dad because I was 17 at the time so I technically had not been allowed to like this is something that you have to do when you're not 18 And you don't have have the ability to consent for yourself. So anyways, I brought him with me. He did not know very much about all of this because my family is Middle Eastern. And I've never even been to a party and in the family like, no one has ever tried to sell anything in terms of within our sphere. I know a lot of people have probably gone to like parties within their families and have gone with their moms to things, but that just was not my reality. So it didn't seem like anything that was weird, because I didn't know anything about it. Long story short, we go to this interview, and it's like a group interview to start off with. And they have these two, essentially, like 19 year old people come in, and they're the managers. They scan the room and are basically kind of looking for people who they think would be good at this job. And they don't tell us anything about what the job is, they just tell you that it's in sales. It's it's really good experience, you get a $15 base pay. And that was like the selling point, because minimum wage, you know, is like seven bucks an hour at that point. And if you think about it, that sounded like a great deal, especially for someone who was just out of high school. So I was recruited, I'm pretty bubbly. They go in for like an individual interview after the group interview. And that's where they really try to sell you that you would be really wonderful at it that you would be an amazing salesperson, you could be so good. And just again, kind of laying it on thick and making sure that they know that you're wanted or you know that you're wanted. So that way you accept the position. And I did, because I really just wanted the job. Again, I didn't even know what we were doing or selling. It felt like I lived an entire life throughout that short amount of time because of how intense it was. The training that we started off with was a daily kind of like, like seven to five kind of thing at the office space that they I think rented out. Which I'll kind of get to how I consider this to be an MLM, a pyramid scheme. But the point being is that this was not a very like professional setup, or office space, we just kind of went there. And it was just some chairs setup. And these, essentially kids training us on how to sell these knives. And again, we did not know about this until we had accepted the job. And then we also had to buy a kit. So it was it was definitely all of that those tactics that they that you hear about a lot. And again, me being young, I was probably one of the few people there with that brought a parent. So, I'm sure that other people were just like seeing stars, seeing dollar signs, because this is something that seems really exciting. Especially if you're young and have not had much work experience. They teach us how to sell these knives. And I do pretty well because my family is fairly, I wouldn't say like well off, I would you know, they were comfortable. They were middle class, my dad worked for Ford. So, it was just kind of not hard to sell things to them. However, just as everyone else does, you kind of run out of a market really quickly. And the way that they sold this to you was that, oh, you ask for someone who you can sell to from every single person that you have these appointments with, so that way you can continue selling forever. However it does dry up. There's only so many people that you can sell to. And these are very expensive overpriced knives, and really not necessary for anyone to live their lives fully. I kind of fizzled out quickly. I did go to so many of these like trainings, it was a lot of rah rah. It was a lot of driving around. A lot of motivational speak. A lot of stuff that I was kind of like, how does this relate to what we're selling. A lot of meeting people my age, and at that point, again, I graduated high school, I was really looking for some new people in my life. And it was just the prime... the prime target. And I didn't realize it was such a scheme until I had left and years and years and years later, I was talking to just I stay friends with some of the people that I was in it with and no one stayed for very long, which was probably my first sign that things were not really legitimate. But I spoke with a friend and he mentioned that he had stuck on just a little bit longer than me and that once things kind of started to fizzle away with the other people that I started with. They asked him if he wanted to open his own branch... so his own office This... this whole process of being in it was was so intense. I was constantly busy. It felt like school, it felt like I was at something just for like a long amount of time and went home kind of like a regular school day. And just like in a school day, I mean, you don't get paid for the work that you do. You weren't getting paid for all these trainings, you were only getting paid when you made a sale.

Melissa Milner 25:23

It's not surprising to me that every antiMLM person I have ever met or spoken to was formally in an MLM. I think a lot of us that are starting to speak out about antiMLM I think a lot of us are trying to help others to avoid the mistakes we made. And education is the key. And, you know on a bigger scale, the more you educate the more people can speak out. Life after MLM podcast by Roberta Blevins. Her episode 92 is all about the FTC. And what's going on right now. She says, "Have you heard the news about the FTC? Well, if not, I gotcha. In this episode, some friends of the show returned to talk about the FTC's ANPR what it means and how you can help." So she has Doug Brooks on and he just, he just lays it down. He explains it all. So I highly recommend hopping over to Roberta's... You know, we're all trying to do the same thing, which is just to educate, and then hopefully, to empower people to do something. So episode 92 of Life After MLM, and I will put the link on the episode page as well. So in this next part, Sarah shares about the normalizing of MLMs especially among educators.

Sarah Haidar 26:50

MLMs prey on teachers quite a bit. A lot of my teacher friends are involved in them. A lot of professors are involved in them. A lot of very, you know, intelligent people and this is not to say anything about them, it's just to say that these schemes prey on anyone and especially people who care a lot. It's very easy to exploit feelings of being exploited by your job and offering something better. Offering a way out and a lot of these MLMs do that. I know a lot of teachers who are selling it to people that they work with and that is just a giant breach of ethics and a really gross predatory way of continuing this scheme. But I think it's the reason why they're preyed upon because they have such a vast network. I have been like approached by so many other educators in MLMs, sold to so many times by other educators, and it's not that I want to knock them all as a group. I just want it to be abundantly clear that I am not okay with them in schools. I am not okay with them at all, but I'm especially not okay with them in our public education system. And especially with the influence that educators have on on people and the community just to see them to have them as parts of the daily life of you know, everyday folk like it's just going to make it seem normal. And like it's something that is everyone does it and that it's okay there's nothing wrong with it and we send that message through all of these little details throughout the day. Like I was talking to someone else about people who drink Herbalife shakes at school or bring their like protein thing that says it on the you know says Herbalife Nutrition on it or Shakeology or whatever MLM they're involved with. You know, teachers that are selling Young Living and are doing the defusing in their classrooms. I'm just waiting for a lawsuit. Like I mean, I'm waiting for that to happen because there is going to be a reaction that a kid is going to have and that is not going to be good at for the for the teacher. This is why I'm so outspoken and passionate about it because I just think about the impact that has and how harmful the message that sends is that it's just I feel like I'm not saying anything against it that I'm silently condoning it.

Melissa Milner 29:34

I was curious to hear how Sara respectfully discusses her concerns about MLMs with friends and colleagues. I find her approach and Dave's to be honest and supportive, which is really refreshing.

Sarah Haidar 29:48

I try to work at an intrapersonal level where I really have a conversation with another educator that I'm that I'm getting kind of close with because there's so much content out there. And I really don't want to be adding a lot to an already kind of saturated field. I don't want to say that there's enough, I just don't want to reiterate the same things over and over again. I want to be able to link people to good sources. And I'm very, I'm very patient with people. So I can have these conversations and go on and on and not get upset with them. So I try to have these conversations on a very, I guess, like basic level with them and try to try to make them see, plant the seed, and maybe that they'll see what they're doing is not the way to go. I also try to make it so I'm always there for them no matter what. And this is just again, the people that I know, in my day to day life, and then also sharing the information out there with all of the people that I know, and making sure that what I do share is accurate. I think that rushing to be right should not be a person's first, I guess, like their they should not try to be right when they're talking with someone, they should try to meet them where they are at and ask questions that get them to think. And this is kind of going back to some counseling skills of like motivational interviewing, getting someone to come to a conclusion on their own without actually giving them all of your conclusion. Basically, the whole... it all falls apart that I mean, their entire, the entire thing is a house of cards, a straw man, once you pull the straw, it all comes apart. So it's very easy, actually, once you ask a very basic question, like so how do you make money? Do you make more money from the people that you recruit? Or the people that you sell? Do you keep a spreadsheet? Are you encouraged to keep a spreadsheet? Are you paid for your trainings? You know, stuff like that, and not being judgmental, but just kind of like giving, taking what they give you? And asking them a question that kind of gets them to think about it without offending them. Because that's the goal is you don't want to offend them. Because that's when you lose them. And it's really hard because especially when someone comes at you with really intense energy, or really even personal attacks, like some of them, they might come at you in a way that's like, well, I know more than you. Like what do you know, you're just you're just some little nobody, you you don't have the vision, you're not thinking big enough. And I think that that can be really hard to respond to. And it takes a long time. It takes a lot of practice. This is not something I grew up good at. I it took a long time of listening to people and getting into really bad arguments with people and seeing what didn't work and then getting the What does work, which is a lot more simple questions, really simple questions, and especially with MLMs, you can kind of stick to the same ones. You don't have to like make up new, you know, reinvent the wheel. Every time you talk with someone, it's very basic. How do you make money? Do you make money from recruiting other people? Do you make it... Are you required to buy things to start? Do you make more money than you spend every month? Do you have some sort of spreadsheet? Can I see it? I would encourage and then if they don't I would encourage them, I'd say I really encourage you to keep a spreadsheet of what you're spending versus what you're making every month. And seeing if it's coming out in the in the green. And, again, just being non judgmental, saying I'm always going to be here for you. I'm not going to buy your products. I'm not going to support that. But I am going to be here for you. Because this is inevitably not going to work out. And I like that to them. But this is not. It's going to fall apart. Yeah, it's going to and I don't want to yuck in there yum, but I will give them a lot of reality. And I think a lot of people, unfortunately, they're not very used to hearing a lot of reality, especially if you're from the Midwest like I am. People are very polite and surface level with you in conversation and they're not used to someone who's very straightforward. So I know someone like me, I come off very abrasive to a lot of people. I've had to learn to rein it in.

Melissa Milner 34:48

As Sarah and I were chatting about the normalization of MLMs, I shared with her that when I was growing up in the late 70s and throughout the 80s, Tupperware, Avon, and Mary Kay, were definitely normalized. Avon to me was my mom just selling. At no time was she trying to recruit? But Sarah shared with me that Avon has changed. Ugh. I've come to learn, especially from reading Robert Fitzpatrick's book Ponzinomics, that they're all the same.

Sarah Haidar 35:21

I've heard that it's changed to become more about recruiting and less about... because they used to have guaranteed areas, like zip codes, that they could sell to. But now that's...that's not the case at all, and it's more about getting the team and all of that. Oh, yeah, I know quite a few people that are involved in Mary Kay. And it's just, there's so much. There's so many of them out there. And when I really opened my eyes, I see a lot of teachers involved in them, even if they're not selling for them, they're involved in them. And, again, that kind of normalizes it, even if they're not sharing it with their students, they might be sharing it with their co workers, they might be sharing their Beachbody workout that they did, and it might not be to sell to them, but it would plant the seed that that is normal and acceptable. I think selling to each other in the workplace. That's it. That's another kind of like topic that kind of needs to be addressed when we talk about this too. Because even without MLMs, I think it's very unethical to bring in like your other business ventures into the workplace, especially in a school. It makes me feel kind of gross.

Melissa Milner 36:40

Sarah, you're amazing. I really learned a lot about the normalizing part of antiMLMs from talking to you. And I really appreciate it because it's just something I...that I just hadn't realized. I do want to thank again, Sarah and Dave, for taking the time out to talk to me. Sarah is @ravenclawthots and Dave is @daveimok. I was so inspired by both of these educators. I hope to do at least a part four of this MLM series maybe later in the year because it really is something that I am plugging into... listening to. I'm leaving a lot of resources on the episode page. It's episode 61 of The Teacher As... website. Thanks for listening. For my blog, transcripts of this episode, and links to any resources mentioned. Visit my website at www.theteacheras.com. You can reach me on Twitter and Instagram at melissabmilner and I hope you check out The Teacher As... Facebook page for episode updates. Thanks for listening. And that's a wrap.

Melissa Milner

Episode 61: Zooming In on MLMs Part 3

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Episode 60: Zooming In on MLMs Part 2