Episode 40: Zooming In on Art Therapy with Pamela Malkoff Hayes
Pamela Malkoff Hayes
PamToons
Immediate Gratification vs Long Term Gratification
Gratitude Tree
Things that stop me.
Things that inspire me.
Transcript:
(transcribed by kayla.r.fainer@gmail.com)
Melissa Milner 00:09
Hi, this is Melissa Milner. Welcome to The Teacher As... podcast. The goal of this weekly podcast is to help you explore your passions and learn from others in education and beyond to better your teaching. The Teacher As... podcast will highlight innovative practices and uncommon parallels in education.
In this episode, I have Pamela Malkoff Hayes, and she is a licensed marriage and family therapist. And she's also a board certified art therapist. And honestly, I'm more interested in the art part of this. But I'm sure she'll tell us all about her world. Welcome, Pamela, to The Teacher As...
Pamela Hayes 00:52
Thank you so much. Thank you, Melissa. I'm really excited to be here.
Melissa Milner 00:57
So what do you want The Teacher As... listeners to know about you?
Pamela Hayes 01:01
I have been an art therapist for 30 years, which is crazy. And what I want you to know is I still love my job after all that time. I am constantly like, this is what I get paid for? I get paid to encourage people to make art and then making art with them, or showing them how to make art and watching them feel better around it. So that's what I do.
Melissa Milner 01:31
That's incredible. Did you start out as an art therapist?
Pamela Hayes 01:35
I actually went to art school. I thought I was going to go into graphic design. And I got to art school. I went to Parsons School of Design in New York City.
Melissa Milner 01:45
Oh, wow.
Pamela Hayes 01:46
Yeah. Fancy, I know. And yeah, I totally thought I was gonna go into graphic design. I got there. And I was like, I just want to paint, and sculpt, and make installations. And then I realized I wasn't gonna make any money doing that. Yeah, so I actually had a really interesting introduction to art therapy.
It happened early on, when I was in high school. I had a really great art teacher, Mr. Hoffman. And Mr. Hoffman took our class to go see this gallery exhibit of people's paintings that were painting their migraine headaches.
Melissa Milner 02:31
Wow!
Pamela Hayes 02:35
That's exactly right. I thought, that's fascinating, right? There were like exploding heads and swirling heads. And I was just like, that is so interesting. Who would think to do that? And, then I guess I kind of filed that away for a while.
I went off to art school. And then I was living in San Francisco. And actually, my sister's boyfriend at the time gave me a Christmas gift of a calendar. Melissa, do you remember actual calendars?
Melissa Milner 03:08
Yes, old school calendars.
Pamela Hayes 03:12
So he gave me a calendar that was produced from Napa State Psychiatric Hospital. I was living in San Francisco at the time. And Napa is just a little bit north of there. And these were all the artwork - paintings, drawings, sculptures and stuff - that were made by kids in the psychiatric hospital. And I thought that was fascinating.
That reminded me of the art exhibit with the exploding heads. And this is before the internet, you know? So I literally called the number on the back of this calendar and got the woman who worked with these kids. And I said, I want to do what you do. What do you do? What is it called?
Melissa Milner 03:55
That's so cool! What is the job title?
Pamela Hayes 04:00
Right. What do you do? Because that's my mission in life.
Melissa Milner 04:05
That's so cool that you were like, this is it. It came to you like that.
Pamela Hayes 04:09
Right. It was just that moment.
Melissa Milner 04:11
And the passion of art can bring people to so many different avenues. You could be an art teacher.. But the fact that you were drawn to dealing with pain, like a migraine headache, or dealing with possibly mental illness or whatever, that's just so cool.
Did you start with the art therapy? Or did you start with the marriage and family therapy? Or do you do both?
Pamela Hayes 04:38
So actually, simultaneous. So I had an undergraduate degree in art, in fine arts. And then I started an art therapy program, a graduate program. And this program was in a school just south of San Francisco. And they had a dual track. So you could get your Master's in marriage family therapy and a Master's in art therapy. And so that allowed me to get the license. Because unfortunately, art therapy is not a recognized license in a lot of the states.
Melissa Milner 05:23
Yeah, I noticed you said board certified, not licensed. Interesting.
Pamela Hayes 05:29
Yeah, it's unfortunate. And we've been working for 20 years and trying to get it through Congress to be a recognized profession. And definitely more and more institutions, and schools, and hospitals are reaching out to our therapists. But I still need the license as a marriage family therapist to get paid by insurance.
Melissa Milner 05:56
Wow, I'm going to drop the bomb. Because I'm sure there's not one easy answer. What is art therapy?
Pamela Hayes 06:04
Oh, that's such a good question. Okay. Let's see. Let's see if I can give you a quick version. Basically, it's the place where psychotherapy, and traditional talk therapy, and art come together. And so we're in a traditional therapy session. You'd come in, you'd sit down on the couch, and you would talk to your therapist about your anxiety, or your depression, or your addiction, or your relationship.
I will have someone not only talk to me, but I'll also have them draw a picture about it, or create a painting about it, or make a sculpture about it. The thing is that we've been speaking-- most people start speaking when they're two or three years old. So we're really good at censoring what we say as we say it most of the time.
But because most people don't have art as a language-- most people in general stop drawing and making art in middle school. Because after that it becomes an elective, right? Only certain people follow that path. And so most people stop drawing around age 10 or 11. And so a lot of things come out subconsciously in the artwork that we just didn't know was there or we didn't know how to put it into words.
Melissa Milner 07:36
I'm just reminded of the scene in The Office when Toby has to do a certain number of hours with Michael Scott, because he did something wrong in the office. And Michael Scott hates Toby. And bottom line is Michael Scott starts opening up with the picture. And Toby's asking him questions about the picture.
And then Michael Scott looks over at him and goes, hey, I know what you're doing. But it really isn't about what he wasn't willing to say had come out in his art.
Pamela Hayes 08:13
It's a good cultural reference, right? But yeah, it's definitely true that things will come up a lot quicker in the artwork, or things that will make connections between two seemingly unconnected things. And we'll be like, oh, maybe that's why I felt this way. And those kind of things are really powerful.
But that's just one aspect of art therapy. I really feel like there's multiple layers to it. So one is, what is the image and the symbolism of the actual artwork that you made? And what does it mean? But I think the process itself is very telling. If somebody is like, this is the most frustrating thing, and I hate painting, and it's messy. That tells you a lot about who that person is. And it tells you about how they interact with life right now.
I find that the way they respond to making artwork is oftentimes the way they respond to life. So if they're like, this is wonderful and relaxing, well, maybe they already do that their life. Or if they're like, this is frustrating, and I'm annoyed, and I don't like being told what to do--
Melissa Milner 09:33
You don't just do this with kids, right? Art therapy is with adults, as well?
Pamela Hayes 09:37
Right. I think that's one of the misnomers is that art therapy is really for kids. But I would say for the last 15 years, I have really been exclusively working with adults. I don't work with kids at all anymore.
Melissa Milner 09:52
Interesting.
Pamela Hayes 09:53
Yeah, I actually love working with the adults. Because one, I love myself a metaphor. And there's so many metaphors in the artwork. And kids don't have - depending on their age - but they don't understand metaphors in that same way. But the adults aren't as comfortable. They're self conscious. They don't want to make mistakes. They're perfectionists. It's causing them anxiety.
And the other thing that I think is really powerful in the art therapy is when they're making something, when my clients are making something, and they start to feel frustrated or anxious about it not coming out the way they want it to, opportunity for them to learn and practice tolerating frustration and disappointment. Life is about frustration and disappointment. It's what we do with things.
I do a lot of work with drug addicts. And when they start to feel frustrated, or disappointed, or any kind of feeling, they want to make it go away. So they will drink, or they will put a needle in their arm, or take a pill so they don't have to feel. And then when they get sober, they have to learn to feel again. They have to learn to tolerate feelings. So it's a good opportunity with low stakes.
There's one more aspect of art therapy. It's really about getting lost in the process and really turning off a lot of the chatter that's in your head, of all the things that have to get done, and all the worries, and all the disappointments. And because most people aren't doing art on a regular basis, this is something where their brain has to be very present and focused. And you can just quiet that chatter for a little bit and get lost in the process. And it can be a really soothing activity.
Melissa Milner 11:59
You were talking about art therapy. And then I was wondering, therapeutic art, the actual doing the art is what's calming and making you present. I don't know if you're into pottery. But The Great Pottery Throwdown, just watching them do the pottery is so satisfying and so relaxing. That's like the best show on TV to just unwind and relax at the end of the day. And it's on HBO Max, I believe. Have you watched it?
Pamela Hayes 12:35
I have not seen it. But now I'm like, I have to watch that now. That's better than the cooking shows.
Melissa Milner 12:43
It's amazing. Back to art therapy, the kid has been abused in the movie, and then they go to the office, and the person has to draw a picture and that whole thing, that is the whole Hollywood version of an art therapist.
Pamela Hayes 13:04
That is, that is.
Melissa Milner 13:06
You're saying you don't even work with kids now. But on a typical day as an art therapist, is it in an office or is it in an art studio? How do you set up to allow for this work?
Pamela Hayes 13:21
That's a good question. And I really think that it depends on the art therapist and what facility or capacity they're working in. I've worked in almost every possible scenario. I've worked in schools and private practice. I've worked in a prison. I've done online work. I've done at residential care, both for kids or for sober living, eating disorder clinics. So I've done it in a lot of different settings.
Most of the time for me, it's never been an art studio. It's always been either an office that I have set up where I do have a table and we can make art in there. Or a lot of the work that I've done in the last 10 years has been going into, like I said, residential treatment programs, both for substance abuse and eating disorders. And we're literally sitting at the dining room table of this residential home and covering it with plastic garbage bags and painting there.
I make the location work. But I'm sure that there's some art therapists who have actual art studios that they have people come into.
Melissa Milner 14:47
You mentioned you worked in schools. What did that look like?
Pamela Hayes 14:51
There was a couple of different things that I've done in schools where I would pull a child out of the classroom. If there was a child who was struggling with behavior, or maybe they were on the autism spectrum, or a little bit OCD-- so I would pull them out, take them into my office. We would do art there. And then they would go back to the classroom.
But I've also run groups in schools like social skills groups. And we use the art as a way to teach them how to interact with each other. Maybe they'll be working on a collaborative project where they all have to work together and give each other permission, or ask questions, or listen.
Melissa Milner 15:38
I think-- was it the puzzle activity that you shared with me that idea?
Pamela Hayes 15:43
Yes, that was super cool. So I got one of those. Have you ever seen the blank puzzles?
Melissa Milner 15:53
Yeah, the big size, right?
Pamela Hayes 15:55
Yeah, so I got a big one. I think it was like, three feet by five feet. It's a big floor puzzle. And it's just completely blank, completely white. And in one case, I just drew some-- I took some big platters or something and dishes and drew some random circles on it, and then took it apart. So at least it had some kind of consistency to it.
But in other cases, if I was working in a group, I would say, okay, let's come up with a theme. And maybe they'd say, let's do an underwater theme. And then I would draw some fish and octopus and boats and whatever, and then take it apart. And they can work on that. But it's so interesting, because they can then work together. They can work separately on their own individual pieces. And then they have to work together to put it back together. So that was neat.
And there was one-- I forget if I told you this. But there was one where we had a boy who would just take a puzzle piece, and he'd write his initials and maybe even a curse word on it, and then toss it aside and pull another puzzle piece and write his initial. And so he was just going through piece after piece and not really putting any work into it.
And finally, one little girl, she spoke up. And she said, hey, that's not fair. And I said, well, what's not fair? And she said, he's just using up all the pieces. And I'm spending all this time on one piece. And the whole thing's gonna look crappy when we're done.
And so I said, alright, let's all come together as a group. Let's problem solve. What should we do? And maybe we should ask him why he's doing that. And maybe we should-- and they came up with a great solution.
They let him keep one that was just the way he had done it. But they also made him go back and rework the other ones, and add more to it, and spend more time on each one. So it was a neat solution that they all came up with.
Melissa Milner 17:59
And he agreed to it?
Pamela Hayes 18:01
He did. Peer pressure is very powerful.
Melissa Milner 18:05
Yeah. It's this idea of building community at the beginning of the year. What a great idea. I did that once. Once you told me about it, I just went on Amazon and got the puzzle pieces. And the kids loved it.
Pamela Hayes 18:19
Yeah, it's very fun. Those are fun.
Melissa Milner 18:21
If you were a gen ed classroom teacher, but you had this passion, and you had this experience with art therapy, how, when, if would you use it? And what do you think about classroom teachers? What pieces of your work could they use in their classrooms?
Pamela Hayes 18:43
Oh, that's such a great question. Because I do a lot of lecturing and teaching. And I oftentimes have art teachers - elementary school, middle school, high school teachers -come to my lectures so that they can incorporate some of my techniques into their work. And vice versa or conversely, I also follow a couple of art teachers on Instagram that I will often times take their art projects and make them more therapeutic with my clients.
So it goes both ways. So one of the things that you can do just in general, if you're making some art with the kids, whatever your lesson is, you could just ask afterwards. What was your experience of making this artwork? Did you enjoy it? Did you not enjoy it? Were you frustrated? Did you find yourself calm and relaxed during it? So you could just have that sort of open ended discussion about what that process was like for them.
Melissa Milner 19:43
That's a good point, just talking about it. Yeah, debriefing.
Pamela Hayes 19:48
Exactly, I love to debrief. And then the other thing is, like I said, you can point out to them, oh, I can see you're getting frustrated. Just kind of sit with that frustration for a little bit, but don't give up. Because if you give up right now and you walk away from this art project, then that frustration is going to stay with you. But if you work through it, you'll probably get to a point where you're less frustrated, and you'll feel better. So acknowledging what's going on for them right there, and that's really helpful.
Melissa Milner 20:22
Yes. Okay, let's switch gears. You are a school counselor, and you meet with one student at a time, or you have a lunch bunch with some kids. What types of techniques or projects might you do? Or just have them draw? What do you think you would do?
Pamela Hayes 20:43
I think this happens more with adults than kids, but I will get this with middle schoolers and high schoolers, where they'll be like, well, I can't draw. I can't draw. All I can draw is a stick person. That's what I always hear. I can only draw a stick person. And I'll be like, you know what? For so many years, I was trying to encourage them, no, you could draw more. Try harder.
And it finally occurred to me, just meet them where they're at, right? If they tell me they can draw a stick person, alright, let them start. And then I go through this process where I tell them to add something. I'll be like, now have your stick person holding something. And then have your stick person standing on something. And then have your stick person wearing something.
And I go through about, I don't know, six or eight different things. And by the end, they have a whole story. And it's so fascinating. Because when I say, okay, tell me about your drawing, I would say 75% of the time, kids will start going, well, I am holding a flower. And I am standing on a box. And I am wearing a hat.
And so without even saying the stick person is you, they've already identified it. And so it's already there. And I'll say, well, what does this drawing tell me about you that I didn't already know?
Melissa Milner 22:07
Yeah. I like that. What does it tell you that I didn't already know?
Pamela Hayes 22:12
And that's such a neat one. And then the other thing that I usually say is, look at this. You told me you couldn't draw more than a stick person. And now you have this whole drawing in front of you. How about that? And then I say to them, what else do you think you can't do, but you haven't been shown how to do? You haven't broken it down into simple doable steps or you haven't tried yet. Imagine that.
Melissa Milner 22:41
Oh, I love that. You did mention, just in general, that you find projects online. You see something a teacher's doing and then you tweak it to make it therapeutic. I don't remember your exact wording.
But what are the steps to take just a regular art project-- okay, at the end of the year, we want our class to do a really cool mural that maybe shows all the amazing experiences we've had this year. How do we take that and add a level of introspection and therapy into it?
Pamela Hayes 23:23
That's such a good question. In that case, I would direct them to say, think about the colors that you choose and what those colors mean to you. Everybody has different meanings or different memories around colors, shapes, and symbols. Oh, I see you drew three flowers. Is three an important number to you?
So you can ask questions like that. But to create something that is therapeutic, you can say, I want you to think about what you want to leave for the next people to see. What is important about you that you want to share?
Because really, that's what we're here on this earth to do is to share ourselves with other people in positive ways, right? And you have this opportunity to leave something in this mural that is uniquely you. What do you want other people to know about you?
Melissa Milner 24:24
All right, I wrote it all down. I like the colors, too. Because for some kids, they really do. They're like, this is my color. This is my color. And I never think to say, why?
Pamela Hayes 24:36
Right. And sometimes we'll do it like a free association. We'll be like, tell me five things that are purple or remind you of purple. And you'll get some really interesting answers. Because I never make assumptions about colors. I just always ask. Tell me about that. Tell me about that color choice.
Yeah, one of the things that I sometimes do is after I've worked with somebody for a while and we've sort of gotten past whatever problem or obstacle that we were working on in therapy is, at the end, I'll have them make a flag to represent their healthy state of being.
So we usually do that as a collage cut of colored paper. And I said, well, you're making this flag. Think about the colors you want to use. That's going to represent your healthy state of being. Think about the symbols, the shapes, how many of those shapes you want.
Because if you look at the American flag, there's 13 stripes. There's 50 stars. They all have meaning, why those are there. So it's really fascinating to see what people come up with with that one.
Melissa Milner 25:52
Oh, I love that as an end of the year, too.
Pamela Hayes 25:55
Yeah, that's a good one.
Melissa Milner 25:56
Yeah, fantastic. Or the beginning of the year.
Pamela Hayes 25:59
Yeah. I actually have them write their declaration of independence as well, which is kind of fun.
Melissa Milner 26:08
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. What are you zooming in on right now in your work?
[ZOOMING IN SOUNDBITE]
Pamela Hayes 26:17
Most of the work that I do right now, honestly, is anxiety. Oh my god, we have all been through a couple of crazy years. So I would say that the majority of the work that I'm doing with people is about just identifying their anxiety and their fears and confronting them, talking to that, to those fears.
Sometimes I'll have people draw their fear as a monster. Yeah, that's a really good one. Draw your fear as a monster. And then I'll ask, if you were standing next to this monster, how big would you be? So you can get a sense of how overwhelming this fear is.
Melissa Milner 26:58
That's cool.
Pamela Hayes 26:59
Yeah, that's a good one. And then I actually have them have a conversation with the monster, where they ask the monster, what do you want? And then the monster says, well, I want whatever.
And so I have them start off with asking the monster what you want and have them go through a whole conversation, and then end the conversation by saying, you know what? I hear you, and I see you. But you don't get to control me.
Melissa Milner
Yep. I've read so many books on treating anxiety. And it really basically all comes down to what you've just said. You need to talk to your fear basically. Because a lot of parents and teachers are like, oh, what's the worst could happen? Don't worry about it.
And it's like, no, we need to acknowledge that the fear is there, and have the child acknowledge that the fear is there, and name it, and talk to it. And yeah, say I got this. I don't need to be worrying about this.
Pamela Hayes 28:01
I think it's much more important to integrate your fears, and like you said, acknowledge them as opposed to downplay them. Or worse even so is to give the fear a lot of space. Because I really think of anxiety kind of like a gas. The more space you give it, the more it will expand to fill that space. And so you've just got to keep it contained.
Melissa Milner 28:29
So when you say integrate, what does that mean?
Pamela Hayes 28:34
In this instance, what I would do is if we were working with drawing their fear monster or creating it out of clay - I've done that, too - making friends with it, and allowing it to have a voice, and allowing it to say, I am scared to go into the ocean. Okay, that's okay. But it doesn't mean we're not going to do it.
So I also think of fear-- see, I told you I love a metaphor. I think of fear as like a little kid having a tantrum, right? He wants to get your attention. The fear and the anxiety, they want to get your attention. And the more you ignore it, the louder it gets.
But if you look at that fear, and you say, okay, what do you want? What do you need from me right now? And you give it some time to let it have it's say. And then you're like, okay, well, I can give you this, but I'm not going to give you that.
Melissa Milner 29:29
Right. The anxiety, I totally get that. And then before I ask the last couple things, I've gone through a very tragic time with my husband passing in February. Do you do a lot of work with people who are grieving?
Pamela Hayes 29:45
I have done a good deal of work with people with loss and grief, not just death, which I have worked with. But also when I was working in the foster care system and in the prison system, dealing with people who have lost their children because of their parental rights have been taken away, loss from divorce, loss from natural disasters, things like that.
So yeah, one of the interesting things that I'll do-- and you can try this. There's a really interesting technique called the Soul Collage. That was originally created by a woman named Seena Frost. And she has a great book out called The Soul Collage.
And what I've done is had people bring in a picture of their loved one and actually cut that person out of whatever environment they were in in that picture. Let's say they were sitting in an armchair in the living room. And so I actually have them cut that person out of the living room, and then place them into a new environment, and then add other things that either remind them of that person. Or maybe you want to give to that person.
And so this idea of this person is still a part of us. They're still with us, but they're in a different realm. They're in a different environment. We're not going to see them sitting in the armchair in our living room anymore. But I can see them in my dreams. And I can see them when I speak to them when I'm in the shower, and eat their favorite meal with them.
Melissa Milner 31:34
Yeah, it's a physical way of showing that you're accepting that this person isn't here anymore.
Pamela Hayes 31:42
It's definitely a very physical shift of where they were and how we thought of them to where they are and how we think of them now.
Melissa Milner 31:53
After hearing this, everybody's going to want to reach out to you. So how can people reach you to hear more about your work?
Pamela Hayes 32:01
Oh my goodness. I'm very reachable. You just have to look. Everything's under Hayes Art Therapy. So that's my website, hayesarttherapy.com. That's my Facebook page. That's my LinkedIn. But my Instagram is actually @somethingssketchy. I thought that was very funny.
Melissa Milner 32:28
Yes. And I've been enjoying your little videos that you do.
Pamela Hayes 32:32
Yes. And I've just started making these. You've probably seen these on my Facebook or my Instagram is these little cartoons of myself. Because I feel like there's moments in life that we just can't catch in a selfie or in a photograph, you know? And so I think tonight, I'm gonna sit down and draw a cartoon of myself for Pride month.
Melissa Milner 33:00
Oh, wonderful.
Pamela Hayes 33:01
Yeah, that's my project for tonight.
Melissa Milner 33:04
That's fantastic. The last question, and in my mind, this is my version of art therapy. It's movie therapy. What is your favorite movie, and why?
Pamela Hayes 33:16
Oh my god. Such a good question. I would have to say, the movie that I've watched the most is probably Back to the Future.
Melissa Milner 33:28
That's such a good movie.
Pamela Hayes 33:31
I know. I just love this idea. I don't know. There's just so many layers to it. And especially the second one is so good, because there's so many layers to it. I don't really have a good reason why. I just love it.
Melissa Milner 33:45
It's just fun. It's definitely rewatchable, yes.
Pamela Hayes 33:49
Yeah. What's your favorite movie?
Melissa Milner 33:51
My favorite movie is Jaws.
Pamela Hayes 33:54
Very different.
Melissa Milner 33:55
I mean, I have a zillion favorite movies. But Jaws, because I also am the fan of a metaphor. There's a lot of metaphors in that movie. And it was one of my favorite childhood movies, even though it scared the pants off of me.
But as an adult watching it, the incredible acting, the music, once they're on that boat, they all should have gotten Academy Awards. It's so good. It's so good. Yeah, so that's my favorite. But I mean, I have so many. Shawshank Redemption is just amazing.
Pamela Hayes 34:34
See, that's another one with a lot of layers to it that you could watch over and over again.
Melissa Milner 34:38
Also have you ever seen Magnolia?
Pamela Hayes 34:41
Yes. That one you have to see multiple times to understand what the heck's going on.
Melissa Milner 34:47
And The Hours. I can go deep into the drama. But then I also love Beverly Hills Cop. It's one of my favorite movies. I love that movie. Oh my goodness. Alright, so thank you so much for taking the time out to talk to me.
And I do think that educators, I hope, get a lot out of this. Because it really gets my mind really reeling from ways to just incorporate some of your simple questions and simple ways of just asking the child about their art. It's just amazing. So thank you so much.
Pamela Hayes 35:23
Thank you. That was so awesome. That was a lot of fun.
Melissa Milner 35:28
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I am sending a special thanks to Linda and Lester Fleishman, my mom and dad, for being so supportive. They are the voices you hear in the Zooming In soundbite. And my dad composed and performed the background music you are listening to right now. My intro music was "Upbeat Party" by Scott Holmes.
So what are you zooming in on? I would love to hear from you. My hope is that we all share what we are doing in the classroom in order to teach, remind, affirm and inspire each other. Thanks for listening. And that's a wrap!